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Slim King
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Did anyone else listen to this round table discussion?
http://mnw.squarespace.com/magicnewsfeed......e-1.html
Towards the last half the subject of exposure is considered and there seems to be a Huge difference about how it is viewed by Magicians or Mentalists.
Check it out.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
magicnewswire
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Episode #2 of the our new roundtable podcast This Week in Magic is now online.
Brian Brushwood joins us to discuss exposure and marketing magic to the college market. Enjoy!
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Oyama
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I listened to the second Callahan interview on my way to work today. Very interesting conversation. I thought it was funny that Mr. Wells asked if Jim asked me to post for him. I posted my thoughts out of frustration for one part of his interview. The rest of the interview I enjoyed.

I thought the discussion about exposure was interesting. I don't think any exposure is good. Even the most basic methods can be used to create miracles and they should not be exposed.

Very nice round table discussion Dodd.

BTW...I am listening to the James Randi interview and find it very interesting. I am waiting for the "tough" questions though. I haven't heard any so far.
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
magicnewswire
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I hope that you enjoy the Second TWiM which went up today in which Brian responds to the exposure issue.
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Tom Cutts
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Per #2

I heard a LOT of excuses and bad justification being given for the exposures which were discussed. Mental Epic requires a prop. How does one expose that for use in a bar crowd by a total beginner who wanted to learn some bar bets?

What are the beginners' books which expose Mental Epic? The ONLY book mentioned by name was Joshua Jay's great book, Magic the Complete Course. It does not expose Mental Epic.

That portion came off as sad. Magicians just don't even care anymore.
Slim King
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I haven't heard all of 2 yet but I find it strange that there is no one to represent those that believe in the "Magicians Code" any longer.
On the first one it seemed everyone except Callahan was falling all over themselves to cover what they'd said at first about the Masked Magicians and then try to say the same about Brushwood but with an opposite conclusion Smile

No one is listening.

You'd perform it better than he did.

People won't remember .....

ALMOST IDENTICAL.... I'm glad it's been recorded for the posterities sake Smile

Those here at the Café have removed posts that contain Brian's web page citing EXPOSURE as the reason. Smile

Now that IS the correct response!!!!!
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Tom Cutts
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OK, I watched the Mental podcast. Between the "Gee, I really wish I was still in high school, look at me, look at me" hair-do, AND immediately showing his spectators how it is done (isn't that EXPOSURE?) I can tell you this guy is just selling out magic. He flat out asked them, "Would you like to see how it is done?" That tells you what his mind frame is.

Furthermore, his reason for EXPOSING this is because someone on his forum asked him to. You know what that is called? EXPOSING

Check his key words. Seems like more than half of them are magic related, not scam or bar bet related.

Yeah right, "teaching magic" what a joke. Part of uplifting the art and respecting magic is knowing when to respect the quality of an EFFECT and not give it away for free to total beginners.
Oyama
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Tom and Samurai

People aren't listening. They will tell you that you are "missing" the point and that you don't get it. That's what I got from speaking my mind with the first Callahan interview.

Remember...you don't have a right to complain if you publish it. We all heard that loud and clear.

The direction mentalism and magic are going is sad. I have said it many times. This is another reason I don't consider myself a mentalist or a magicians. They are both turning what we do into bar tricks. Not to mention how all mentailst have to perform one way or your attacked for it.

Another note. My wife listened to the first callahan interview and came to the same conclusion I came to. I didn't say a word to her before she heard the interview. She could care less about this stuff and saw that Dodd was trying to get Jim reduce his performance to a trick. We all read in Banacheks post that he tells his audience that he does most of his effects with magic. WTF!

Whatever...
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
Slim King
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Finished listening and I've got to say I've lost a lot of respect for Scott Wells. He "Almost" asked the right questions but then backed off at the first hint of confrontation.
TEACHING IS "EXPOSURE" ON STEROIDS .... Smile
SPOON FEED THEM THE SECRETS AND CALL IT TEACHING INSTEAD OF EXPOSING!

Not a very Logical position at all. I can't believe Wells let them get away with it.

Brian says that if he'd made a DVD that no one would probably care ... And I don't believe I would if he SOLD IT .... But by giving it away for free on Youtube he's selling us ALL down the river ... Just for the GO DADDY sponsor money!!!!!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
magicnewswire
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I do appreciate that everyone has an opinion on this. It always make me think.

Quote:
On 2009-12-01 14:52, Tom Cutts wrote:
What are the beginners' books which expose Mental Epic? The ONLY book mentioned by name was Joshua Jay's great book, Magic the Complete Course. It does not expose Mental Epic.


Just to clarify, and anyone that has watched Brian's show on Rev 3 will know, he DOES NOT expose Mental Epic. Cameron misspoke and none of us caught it until later. He demonstrates a One Ahead principle.
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Dan Bernier
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I wonder if people feel the same about known magician's and mentalist's who produce DVD's specifically to market to the open public where anyone can get their hands on it. And, advertises their effects as easy enough for even hobbyists to perform. I've seen a lot of advertising these days directly aimed at enticing those who may only perform magic as a hobby or bar trick. What's the thoughts on that?
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
Slim King
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Quote:
On 2009-12-02 15:56, magicnewswire wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-01 14:52, Tom Cutts wrote:
What are the beginners' books which expose Mental Epic? The ONLY book mentioned by name was Joshua Jay's great book, Magic the Complete Course. It does not expose Mental Epic.


Just to clarify, and anyone that has watched Brian's show on Rev 3 will know, he DOES NOT expose Mental Epic. Cameron misspoke and none of us caught it until later. He demonstrates a One Ahead principle.


EVEN WORSE !!!!!!

He's exposing methods that are still used by mentalist and magicians alike.

Now what about the other dozen or so effects that he DOES Expose on Youtube for anyone to view?
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Nathan Pain
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He seems to be what we in Iowa call a "dewche"...

Nathan
...
Scott Wells
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Quote:
On 2009-12-01 14:52, Tom Cutts wrote:
Per #2

I heard a LOT of excuses and bad justification being given for the exposures which were discussed.


Quote:
On 2009-12-01 22:09, Tom Cutts wrote:

Yeah right, "teaching magic" what a joke. Part of uplifting the art and respecting magic is knowing when to respect the quality of an EFFECT and not give it away for free to total beginners.


Hello Tom,

You know that I value your opinion, my friend, so I ask; what is the proper venue and medium to teach magic? Should we take advantage of modern technology to reach the masses (i.e. YouTube, DVD's, iPhone apps, etc.) or just stick with books? And in that regard, where should they be sold? Should the sales be relegated to just brick and mortar shops where one must come in and prove his/her aptitude and interest in magic before a sale is made?

Is it exposure if the book is sold through a public outlet like Borders Books or Barnes and Noble but not exposure if they buy the same book from Denny & Lee or Stevens Emporium? The general public can walk in to a magic shop just as easily as they can walk into a public book store. I doubt that any merchant behind a magic counter (with a few exceptions) would refuse to sell a magic "secret" to someone with money in their hand. Sure, I know the conscientious dealer will direct the beginner to tricks and books more suited for their level, but I know some will just take their money. Are they wrong for accepting money for something that's too advanced for their skill level? Must a beginner go through an apprenticeship so they can be identified as having a valid, true interest in magic? Do we need to keep our small world small?

Who is to say that someone with a passing interest won't get excited about seeing their first trick on YouTube then develop that interest into something that makes them the next Lance Burton? People become infected with the "magic bug" in various and unknown ways. We all have stories of how we were first introduced to magic. I believe that some today are coming into our fold after having received a magic set or book while others may have seen something on TV or YouTube. Those in the latter group may be few and only got hit by the scatter-shot, but nevertheless, they are here...and probably on the Magic Café, too. They are beginners and getting information for free.

As to Joshua Jay's wonderful book, he had a lot of really great ideas and principles that are used by professional magicians. And in fact I know some of the things he put in his book are now in the repertoires of some magicians that weren't there before the book was released. Was that book "too good" for beginners? Are some magicians afraid to say that some of what he published was "exposure" but won't say it because of his celebrated status in our community? But if neophytes don't learn from books like his, then where should these beginners go to learn our craft?

When you say that we "should not give it away for free to total beginners," does that mean that we should charge beginners but not those who are more advanced? And once again I ask, where should those beginners go to find (and pay) for learning...magic shops, the Internet, iPhone apps, television, or ????? And are we prostituting our art when we sell magic? If so, then I stand accused among a massive and august group that spans time from Reginald Scot to Houdini through Tarbell and Mark Wilson down to Michael Ammar and Daniel Garcia.

And what constitutes exposure? What trick(s), effect(s) or principle(s) are too precious to be shared? How did some things get into the hands of the general public in the first place to now be relegated and considered "public domain"? And who determines which tricks or effects or principles are "acceptable" to re-package and re-publish because they are already in the "public domain"? There are no lists of tricks or principles that are acceptable or taboo. It may be Christmas, but sorry Virginia, there is no list of what's naughty and nice.

Who are and where are the "Magic Police"? Going down this road is a slippery slope. Believe me when I say that because that is in part why we disbanded the World Alliance of Magicians (W.A.M.). We did not want to take the role of the international Magic Police.

What is the price of admission and who gets to play?

yours,
Scott
"A magician who isn't working is only fooling himself." - Scott Wells, M.I.M.C. with Gold Star

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magicnewswire
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Quote:
On 2009-12-02 20:04, Psychic Samurai wrote:
He's exposing methods that are still used by mentalist and magicians alike.
Now what about the other dozen or so effects that he DOES Expose on Youtube for anyone to view?


There are only a few episodes on YouTube. Brian has done 90 shows to date and you can find them all HERE
I would be very interested in which specific episodes and effects you feel should not have been taught on the show.
Dodd Vickers

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Slim King
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Quote:
On 2009-12-03 15:52, magicnewswire wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-02 20:04, Psychic Samurai wrote:
He's exposing methods that are still used by mentalist and magicians alike.
Now what about the other dozen or so effects that he DOES Expose on Youtube for anyone to view?


There are only a few episodes on YouTube. Brian has done 90 shows to date and you can find them all HERE
I would be very interested in which specific episodes and effects you feel should not have been taught on the show.


How many Blatant and Obvious exposures do you require Dodd, before you see this for what it is?
Is one to be simply forgiven?
How about two?
Is three enough to call Brian out?
Would four violations of "The Magicians Code" be enough?
Where do you draw the line?
Please give me a number and I'll spend the time going through the offensive BS.

Quote:
On 2009-12-03 15:52, magicnewswire wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-02 20:04, Psychic Samurai wrote:
He's exposing methods that are still used by mentalist and magicians alike.
Now what about the other dozen or so effects that he DOES Expose on Youtube for anyone to view?


There are only a few episodes on YouTube. Brian has done 90 shows to date and you can find them all HERE
I would be very interested in which specific episodes and effects you feel should not have been taught on the show.


I typed in Brushwood on youtube and over 29 videos labeled Scam School surfaced ... IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL A FEW? How very odd...... Dodd Smile

That's a lot more than four Smile

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_qu......pe=&aq=f

If you plug in Scam School 84 video's come up in two seconds (That doesn't seem like too much effort to me)
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_qu......pe=&aq=f
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Nigromante
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Ok, guess what, youtube is not a threat to our art. We've heard this cry for years and it has done nothing to destroy us. Bad magicians are a threat, the lack of practice is a threat, and not because of possible exposure, but because bad magician's make people not like magic. People in the end will forget the videos, and will remember the performances if the performances are well done and amazing. If youtube was going to destroy us, we'd be done already.

Second, I am broke. Many of you can probably understand this concept, some of you may not, but I don't have the luxury of having money. I do have a passion for this art, and a desire to reelevate it to the upper echelons of entertain where it belongs. I love amazing people, and giving them the opportunity to return to that time in their life where all things were possible. However because of the first problem I can't buy all the books and dvds and tricks I'd like to. But because of people like Brian, I have a large repertoire of effects I do and am learning. Because they offer a knowledge to those who care enough to learn it. Where the only currency required is desire and passion. For those who lack these things, they may find the video and may see something exposed, but they will forget the methods and move on in their lives. For those of us who have the drive we are able to take part in something we wouldn't have otherwise.

I understand the need to protect our art, and our secrets and methods, but I refuse to accept the idea that we should deny those with desire and passion on the grounds that they don't have the cash.

Scam school with many others out there provide opportunity to enlarge and better our art. They do not destroy it.

One more thing. Those who seek out these videos to learn the methods and expose us aren't real specs anyways. They aren't the ones who'd enjoy our performances. Those who are really impressed by what we do, you know the ones we want to perform for, don't look these things up.

I know this is long, but I'm tired of the worn out idea that Youtube is going to destroy us. It's not and in fact if used correctly and embraced, it will do nothing but enlarge and increase the strength of our art.

-Frank
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I am one of those people who's interest in Magic has been rekindled by Scam School. Yes, it "gives away" tricks, but frankly, good.

Is there a fear that if people start getting interested in Magic via Scam School, they won't go to shows anymore, that they won't watch David Blaine or (hopefully someday in the USA) Derren Brown on a big TV extravaganza?

I see Scam School as the front of a resurgence in Magic, a sense of wonder in a world that technology allows to do anything.

Embrace the newbies, because for every kid who watches Scam School, you have a potential ticket buyer for a LIVE art that does what movies and TV so rarely do anymore, make the audience go "THAT ISN'T POSSIBLE".

I remember back in the late 70's and early 80s, as a kid, watching guys like Doug Henning, rest his soul and then David Copperfield (who must have been what, 12?) and running out to the magic shop in the MALL and getting books and tricks. I don't remember how to do any of those, I let it go, but I sure as hell always watched when Penn and Teller or Harry Anderson was doing tricks on Carson or Letterman or Leno.

Scam School and the like are creating the magic fans of the future. There is an opportunity to really take this art to the next level. The smart magicians and mentalists will build on it.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go to the bar and eat a match.
Nigromante
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Also I'd like to see Scott's questions answered. I think they're worth being answered, and provide interesting thoughts to the idea of what teaching is in this day and age, and what exposure is. Tom will you answer those for us?
Slim King
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I'm glad to see two new faces on the Café with their first posts. Very nice. And finding this thread is especially hard since it's been moved.
It's also interesting that neither of you have spent any money on the effects being EXPOSED ... So you've lost nothing.

You both need to grow a set of ETHICS Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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