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Nigromante
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Would you care to address the issue at hand or just attack us on an assumed lack of experience, because we only have a couple posts on one forum under our belts? Not every great magician is even a member here, so it can't be assumed we don't know anything because of having only a couple posts. Admittedly I found this thread because of twitter and the fact that I follow Brian. I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a fan of his and on his side in this issue.

Second. You're so worried about what you've lost, that you refuse to see what others gain. People who would've never been able to touch this art and improve it have done so because of things like scam school and youtube. I've spent money on things, and have seen them exposed, and it didn't get me upset. Interesting considering the fact that buying tricks is a treat for me. Just because someone exposed it does not equate to me losing anything.

Can you specifically tell me what you lost? Also can you answer the questions Scott put forth, and the points of our arguments, instead of personally attacking us? Or will you continue to ignore them hoping we'll forget about them and their validity? If we're wrong about what we said please tell us how.
dmann11
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Just for the record, I have spent money on effects subsequent to watching scam school.

I've given money to Daniel Garcia, Andrew Mayne, Richard Sanders, Wayne Houchin, Joshua Jay and Mike Paul.

None of which would have been spent on magic without scam school.

Maybe in 20 years you will see me perform one, ha ha. (practice, ya know)
DiopticTurtle
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I find it interesting that you are using the term 'exposure' as a bad thing. I think shows like Scam School serve to attract new people to the business. Sure there are people who will watch Scam School, fancy themselves magicians right proper, and attempt to collect on it. I, however, see Scam School as a way to get your foot in the door that is magic. It's accessible, and I think that's what people disagree with the most. I'm sure when all of you first took up magic, it was an uphill battle. You had to keep practicing, and practicing, buying new tricks, learning from other magicians, and poured a lot of blood sweat and tears into your routines. Now, people can watch a few episodes of Scam School, and learn to do a few tricks, free of charge. This just makes magic more accessible to the common person. Surely you have more tricks up your sleeves, somewhere between the doves and the extremely long handkerchief chain. I don't put myself on the same level as you. I don't think I could perform a show. I do think that I could build confidence in a bar with a few simple slight of hand tricks, and maybe, that'll be enough to get me to want to spend the time on "Real" magic.
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magicnewswire
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Quote:
How many Blatant and Obvious exposures do you require Dodd, before you see this for what it is?
Is one to be simply forgiven?
How about two?
Is three enough to call Brian out?
Would four violations of "The Magicians Code" be enough?
Where do you draw the line?
Please give me a number and I'll spend the time going through the offensive BS.


If Mike Powers or Danny Garcia have given Brian permission to teach their original material on his show, that is their call and I see noway to call it exposure in those circumstances. Nothing I say will change your mind PS, hence I will refrain from participating. After all... I am no tthe producer of Scam School, I just happen to be a guy that loves magic and does everything that he can to promote the art with a lil podcast called The Spirit of Magic. I've added a show (This Week in Magic) which offers and opportunity for free and open discussion on these topics. You may disagree with me and my opinion. That's ok. People have to agree to disagree sometimes. Sorry.

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I typed in Brushwood on youtube and over 29 videos labeled Scam School surfaced ... IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL A FEW? How very odd...... Dodd Smile
That's a lot more than four Smile


You are correct. The search I did turned up less that 12 from April.

It appears that they do in fact have the entire series with the exception of several of the most recent ones on YouTube. Not having and direct affiliation with Brian or the show Scam School, or with Revision 3, I wasn't aware. I get them directly from the iTunes feed myself.

It really doesn't matter to me if they are all on YouTube or not. That wasn't the point, I simply wanted to make sure that you were aware of the primary source for distribution, as it sounded to me as if you were basing your thoughts on those few that I referenced above as opposed to the entire back catalog of shows.

Quote:
On 2009-12-03 21:24, Nigromante wrote:
Also I'd like to see Scott's questions answered. I think they're worth being answered, and provide interesting thoughts to the idea of what teaching is in this day and age, and what exposure is. Tom will you answer those for us?


I agree. Scott obviously put a great deal of effort into composing a very thoughtful post. Given his past efforts on behalf of magic to battle exposure as the VP of WAM, he's obviously put a great deal of energy and thought into the topic of exposure as a whole. I'm honored to have Scott on the podcast to bring his vast experience and knowledge to bear on topics like these. Thanks for taking the time to post your response Scott.

Tom lives in Oakland and I have no reason to think he's anything other than a nice guy expressing his own viewpoint on a controversial topic. Maybe he'll make a drive into the city when Brian announces his next film date and watch what goes on, have a chat with Shwood and report back.
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Tom Cutts
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Hi Scott,

Yes, we are friends and I too value your perspective. I, like Dave, sensed you pushing the issue in one of your questions... and then you backed away from that completely. Why?

Quote:
what is the proper venue and medium to teach magic?

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the medium of exchanging information. It has EVERYTHING to do with the transaction of exchanging information. In this case the information is given for FREE to ANYONE who opens the TV Guide of this generation (google) and looks for secrets to magic tricks. There is no difference between looking in cyber space for Scum School and looking up when the masked magician will be on. And YES, you could be wandering through YouTube innocently and accidentally stumble on this exposure, just like you can run across the masked one while flipping through that old technology, television.

Again, look at the key words chosen. The intended audience is clearly people who want to learn the secrets of magic tricks for free. No display of interest to perform. No exchange of monetary gain. No demostration of commitment to the art. Simply thrown up into cyber space for free, just like the spectators in his videos. "So, would you like to see how it is done?" I was raised to know that is exposure.

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where should they be sold?
Scott, can you point out where Scum School is sold?

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Is it exposure if the book is sold through a public outlet like Borders Books or Barnes and Noble but not exposure if they buy the same book from Denny & Lee or Stevens Emporium?
Scott, can you point out where Scum School is sold?

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Are they wrong for accepting money for something that's too advanced for their skill level?
Personally, I'd say yes, but in the end an actual transaction took place. The person behind the counter didn't wink and say, "Would you like to see how its done?" and then divulge the method FOR FREE. It may not be a perfect system but the established capitalist exchange for a product is money. I'm fine if a guy has the nerve to stand up and denounce the capitalist way and act accordingly. At least then we have an honest point of view. But that isn't at all what Scum School or its host is about. And they aren't about free knowledge for the world or the changing morrays in social exchange. If they were those things would certainly have been brought up. They weren't.

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Must a beginner go through an apprenticeship so they can be identified as having a valid, true interest in magic?
I was taught he should do SOMETHING which shows his or her earnest interest. Scum School asks for nothing of the sort.

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Do we need to keep our small world small?
Has nothing to do with size, it has to do with interest. Scott, is it necessary to teach highly progressive techniques to absolute beginners to get their interest?

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Who is to say that someone with a passing interest won't get excited about seeing their first trick on YouTube then develop that interest into something that makes them the next Lance Burton?
Great point, lets contact Lance and find out what the first tricks he learned were and what his mentors expected in return before devulging the truly diabolical methods.

Quote:
People become infected with the "magic bug" in various and unknown ways. We all have stories of how we were first introduced to magic. I believe that some today are coming into our fold after having received a magic set or book while others may have seen something on TV or YouTube.
So should you regret attempting to stifle this budding interest by the actions you took against that masked TV guy? I have heard a few instances where those shows sparked interest in new magic enthusiasts. Does that make those shows right? Of course not. And for the same reason Scum School is not right. Both foster from the very beginning a lack of respect for The Magicians Code.

Quote:
As to Joshua Jay's book...Was that book "too good" for beginners?
Personally I say "Yes." and Josh is also a friend of mine. I respect his decision to include the material, though I would not have; and I respect that the book is FOR SALE and not FOR FREE.

Quote:
Are some magicians afraid to say that some of what he published was "exposure" but won't say it because of his celebrated status in our community?
I'm sure some feel that way, but you would have to ask them. I am a mind reader but I am not comfortable divulging their thoughts for them. Smile For the above reason I do not consider it exposure myself.

Quote:
But if neophytes don't learn from books like his, then where should these beginners go to learn our craft?
Your question errantly assumes that I agree with your assumption that Josh's book is exposure; I do not agree. Am I to guess you feel they should surf the internet and get what ever they want for free?

Quote:
When you say that we "should not give it away for free to total beginners," does that mean that we should charge beginners but not those who are more advanced?
Perhaps, afterall that is the established tradition within the art.

Quote:
where should those beginners go to find (and pay) for learning...magic shops, the Internet, iPhone apps, television, or ?????
Yup, yup, yup, and lastly yup if it is for a fee.


Quote:
And are we prostituting our art when we sell magic?
A rather large step beyond the discussion but I will entertain it because you are a friend. When the exchange of money for information is one which is commensurate in showing appropriate interest and commitment (as is the standard of today's society in the US for example) then no offense has occured. This is, again, a long standing tradition in the art. When one gives it away for free one is giving away the milk AND THE COW!!!

Quote:
And what constitutes exposure? What trick(s), effect(s) or principle(s) are too precious to be shared?
Giving it away to passers by with NO IDEA OF THEIR INTEREST OR COMMITMENT is what constitutes exposure. The only difference between Scum School and the Masked Magician is one was on TV and the other is on podcast.

Quote:
How did some things get into the hands of the general public in the first place to now be relegated and considered "public domain"?
Misguided magicians.

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And who determines which tricks or effects or principles are "acceptable" to re-package and re-publish because they are already in the "public domain"?
By your reasoning are you perfectly fine with the Masked Magician exposures which dealt with what you are calling "public domain" tricks?

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Who are and where are the "Magic Police"?
Didn't you ride that saddle at one point?

Quote:
Going down this road is a slippery slope.
Going the direction you are going is more slippery. The next stop is finding PS3 on a torrent and they tell the IP, "We are just teaching."

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We did not want to take the role of the international Magic Police.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". -Edmund Burke

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What is the price of admission and who gets to play?
The price of admission is a show of honest interest and commitment to the art. Not just the ability to use google and wait for a podcast to load.

Dodd, why don't you come out and make a roundtable with Shwood and me on the issue of exposing magic tricks for free on the internet. That IS all he is doing. And let him know I'm certainly not impressed he is hiding behind his twitter followers.
magicnewswire
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Happy to do so Tom. There is only one problem. I live on the East coast and the time and effort I put into the Magic Newswire and the podcast is in return for virtually no financial compensation. I give it all away for free after all simply because I love an art form that I have been involved in since I was in elementary school. We have a significant and ever expanding audience, but very few offer even the smallest donation. And if you think that the revenue received from the few advertisers that we have is appropriate compensation for the effort that goes into the production, you'd be sadly mistaken. In fact, I have been carrying a banner for the Magic Café on the site since before we interviewed Steve on the podcast and did so Gratis to help promote what should be one of the most vibrant communities for a free and open discussion of the art. Unless you are financing the costs associated with traveling to and from California to include Airfare, accommodations and food, that will not happen. If we do schedule it, we should invite Penn and Teller to join us.

Thanks for taking time to reply. As I said earlier in this thread, every comment makes me think about the issue from a different angle.

As to Brian "Hiding," I have no direct connection to Brian, Scam School or Revision 3 beyond what you have as a viewer. Email or Twitter him. He's always been very easy to contact.
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DiopticTurtle
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In my opinion, when you hire a magician, you are hiring a performance, not a trick. The tricks are just one aspect of a good magician. I've sat a few Society of American Magician meetings, and I can tell you, the best magicians don't, in fact, do a lot of magic in the sense of slight of hand, or card tricks, or magic rings. There is no trick that no one sees coming. Every time a magician asks me to pick a card, I immediately know that I will see that card again real soon. Every time a magician opens his hand slowly, I know that whatever was in there at the start of the trick is gone. If you have a pulse, you know how the trick will work. The real magic is making the audience truly believe that it won't. The real magic is getting the audience completely engaged in the process, getting them to believe that maybe, just this once, two plus two will equal five, to the point where you would rather send a call from your girlfriend to voicemail rather than miss part of the routine. The tricks are the easy part.

Quote:

(Referring to “proper” venues and mediums of teaching magic)This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the medium of exchanging information. It has EVERYTHING to do with the transaction of exchanging information. In this case the information is given for FREE to ANYONE who opens the TV Guide of this generation (google) and looks for secrets to magic tricks. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)



Firstly, *** these kids today, with their rap music, and fornication, and their pokemans and GEDDOF MY LAWN!
Just thought we should be on the same page, crotchety-wise.
Secondly, I regrettably must yield to the declaration that the exchange of information is a transaction. You can't always get something for nothing. But to me, information is worthless. Knowing how to do something does not mean you can do that something. I am familiar with the controls of a helicopter, as I've seen numerous specials on TV, and videos on the internet about them. However, I have no doubt in my mind that were I to grab hold of the controls of a helicopter, I would make a sudden and very terminal landing. Similarly, I am familiar with the technique known as “The Human Jack-o'-Lantern”. Does this mean that I can stick a lit match in my mouth without burning myself? No.
Information breeds confidence. Confidence, while important, does remarkably little on its own. Confidence is, however, one of the fundamental components of mastery. It is usually gained through practice, after failing countless times and then succeeding countless times. With confidence, practice becomes easier.
Can I flawlessly force a card to a volunteer just because I saw Brian Brushwood do it once? No, but I can start practicing.
Also, I would hope that your main point of contention would be the “free” part, not the “anyone” part. I usually don't like it when people exclude others because they perceive a difference.

Quote:

The intended audience is clearly people who want to learn the secrets of magic tricks for free. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)



I feel that the target audience is people who want to do magic, but don't know how to get started. As I've stated before, Scam School is a very accessible, very fun show. His character is easily likeable, and he gives a practical demonstration as well as an explanation. I have seen several instruction DVDs from magicians, and it is difficult to qualify why I like Scam School better than I like those DVDs. If you don't get Food Network where you are, I apologize, but this example is too good to pass up. To me, the DVDs are like the very serious cooking shows. Giada at Home, Semi-Homemade with Sandra Lee, Tyler Florence's Ultimate, Bobby Flay's Boy Meets Grill. Watch any of those shows. Then watch Alton Brown's Good Eats. It is much more engaging to the non-cook, but serves to bring him into the culinary world. I am sure many professional chefs find it trite and oversimplifying, but it is designed for the person who has an interest in food, but isn't a chef. I would say that Good Eats is a good comparison to Scam School but when Alton Brown teaches his audience how to prepare sushi, there isn't a minor riot and all around call for the blood of the heretic on a message board.

Quote:

(Referring to Scam School's audience) No display of interest to perform. No exchange of monetary gain. No demostration of commitment to the art. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)



It is true, that there is no way to guarantee that whomever pulls up those videos on Youtube will want to perform any of the tricks. However, if my conclusions about the target audience are correct, it will inspire more people to want to perform.
In my opinion, the fact that he goes out on tours, and appears on talk-shows, and teaches magic on the street to interested parties demonstrates a commitment to the art above the norm. It takes comparatively much less effort to perform the trick than it does to teach it.


Also... Tom... Scum School? Seriously? And we were doing such a good job about not name-calling up until this point...
And, forgive my ignorance... But what exactly is a morray? A cursory “TV Guide of my generation” search assumed I was refering to eels.

Quote:

(In reference to whether a beginner should go through an apprenticeship to demonstrate their interest or not) I was taught he should do SOMETHING which shows his or her earnest interest. Scum School asks for nothing of the sort. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)



I believe that interest is key to passion in all things, including magic. However, I don't think that anyone should ask nor demand to be shown interest before they are allowed to learn. Desire to learn can't be measured, and should not be judged.

Quote:

Scott, is it necessary to teach highly progressive techniques to absolute beginners to get their interest? (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)



No, it isn't necessary. But it is fun, and interesting. Some people get bored with the entry-level magic. Foam rabbits and handkerchiefs are neat and all, but not always the kind of trick people want to learn, and unless you believe that certain tricks should only be able to be performed by certain people, there isn't anything wrong with people learning the tricks they're interested in, or are practical to them first. Is there anything wrong with learning multiplication before you learn addition?

Quote:

Great point, lets contact Lance and find out what the first tricks he learned were and what his mentors expected in return before devulging the truly diabolical methods.(Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)



He did not say “becoming Lance Burton” he said “becoming the next Lance Burton”. Unless you truly do not believe in natural talent in any form, let's be serious. One does not become the next Houdini by copying Houdini.

Quote:


(Referring to The Masked Magician and possibly other televised acts like it) I have heard a few instances where those shows sparked interest in new magic enthusiasts. Does that make those shows right? Of course not. And for the same reason Scum School is not right. Both foster from the very beginning a lack of respect for The Magicians Code. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)



I have perused the duly approved Code of Ethics, and regarding The Masked Magician, I believe that they do violate the first article, in reference to exposure. They willfully expose to the public, the inner workings of the tricks and illusions. I find Scam School to be an instructional source. He does not perform a trick, then give them the answer and leave. He performs the trick, and then teaches, that is to say, spends time and effort, to them how to perform said trick. One would have to agree, that is not exposure, that is instruction.

Quote:

(In reference to a question posed, regarding whether beginners should be charged but not advanced magicians) Perhaps, afterall that is the established tradition within the art. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)



So newer magicians are less worthy of learning tricks? Senior magicians should get what they want for free while newer magicians have to pay their way? I didn't realize the path to being a great magician was paved with expended dollar bills.
In art, tradition is what people who are afraid cling to when the winds of change blow, but they are inevitably swept up.

Quote:

(Referring to whether selling magic is prostitution or not) When the exchange of money for information is one which is commensurate in showing appropriate interest and commitment (as is the standard of today's society in the US for example) then no offense has occured. This is, again, a long standing tradition in the art. When one gives it away for free one is giving away the milk AND THE COW!!! (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)



Quote:

I was taught he should do SOMETHING which shows his or her earnest interest. (Tom Cuts, 12/4/09)



So to you, the appropriate commitment to magic is to pony up a fistful of cash. Answered your own ambiguity there.
Selling magic to an audience, specifically charging admission to a performance, or performing tricks for a beer, is not prostitution, that is commerce. Selling magic to another magician for him to perform is the part that's wrong to me. The ties that bind the fraternity of magicians are apparently slimmer than a dollar bill. The trick should be shared for the sake of the performance, not for the sake of the cash.

I'm done quoting Tom; the rest of that post is far too nonlinear to follow.

All performance is about the same thing. The connection between the audience and the performer. Every single member of the audience has a tie to the performer, and the performer is manipulating that tie to create. Whether it's through music, or comedy, or magic, it's not the trick or the song or the joke the audience comes to see. It is the manipulation of their emotions and perceptions that makes the show. Show a man a trick, and entertain him for a day. Teach a man a trick, and a chain reaction starts.

I think the real fear is that you will be performing some day, and someone will expose you mid-trick. Because the content is distributed freely, you fear that people will know, and be uninterested. I have seen the “Is this your card” trick hundreds of times. And yet, every time, I always believe there is a chance that it won't be my card. I know how it works. I know that he knows exactly where my card is. I know he knows I know. But that doesn't cheapen the trick. Because it's not about the trick. During a good performance, no one would think to say “It's under his hat”.
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While I would never presume to know as much about magic as any of you on this forum but I would like to put forward the point of a layman in terms of magic. Before I started watching Scam School I thought magic was stupid and everytime I saw an advertisement for a magician, famous or local, I didn't care and thought they were stupid for attempting a career in magic in this day and age. I didn't start watching Scam School as way to learn the secrets of magic and to them go up to a magician and laugh at him, I originally started watching purely as a peice of entertainment. But slowly Scam School has built up in me a love of magic I never knew I could have, I'm looking around for magic shows to go to and trying to learn some basic magic things (though frankly I'm still laughable since physical coordination was never my strong suit).
I personally think Scam School is bringing in new magic fans, either as students or budding magician themselves. I could never deny there will be a few people who watch it to think of themselves better than magician however. For me to condemn Scam School, and Brian himself, for showing how to do Magic is to condemn many new magician and new media forms (which it should be noted that every art form has had its struggle with in some way or another) and I find that an incredibly short sighted thing to do that could ultimately bring ruin to magic. The reason I say this is that I read this post days ago but I didn't want to post because I feared entertaining the wall of secrecy, and to an outside eye scorn, that magicians have built up. Brian Brushwood doesn't appear to have that same scorn for non-magicians and readily encourages anyone who sees his show and to then attempt whatever is shown themselves. He often tells viewers more advanced versions of the trick that it could progress onto and ways to make it unique to each performer which I feel breeds, for those like me who had a latent love, a love of magic and magicians.
This is how I feel on the matter, I can see how people might feel love for the magician's code and the need to protect the secret but I feel that new media (which Brian is using) can breed a new generation of magic fans and magic performers especially if the magic community fully embraced him.
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Thanks, Tom, for your thoughtful replies to my individual questions on exposure of our craft. I guess I was thinking and speaking on a much broader scale. Thanks for bringing it back on point to Scam School. You do have some valid points on the issue and you made me chuckle on a couple. BTW, you had a misspelling in your posts...you spelled it "scum", ha, ha. I know it had to be an oversight since you are above puerile name-calling.

I forgot that this has become a "bash Brian" thread. And as such, I choose not to ride that wagon. Perhaps this issue of exposure is best discussed live when next we get together, on a podcast, or in another forum here on the Café.

yours,
Scott
"A magician who isn't working is only fooling himself." - Scott Wells, M.I.M.C. with Gold Star

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Oops, I did do that. Smile It was on purpose and I should clarify that I mean it literally not personally. I believe that what Brian is doing within the show is scummy, in that it cheapens (dirties) the art in its approach to broadening the dispersion of magic methods, and in what the show links magic to.
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It's kind of like an American Scientist betraying/giving/teaching/exposing our U.S. Secrets to the Russians ... Of course the Russians will support him Smile

So Brian has got the Twits to invade the Café.

Hmmm ... Support from those who want everything for FREE while True Magicians must bear the financial burden.

Seems a bit Twisted and totally against The Magicians Code.

Brains claims that he will not expose things that magicians are currently using .... What a bunch of Hooey!
He's exposed several things that "I" use on a Daily basis!

I'm glad Dodd has recorded these so we can actually hold peoples "Feet to the fire" when they try to make 1 equal 2 Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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Quote:
So Brian has got the Twits to invade the Café.

Brian never asked any of us to do anything, we came here of our own volition. I choose to support Scam School because I think its a great show that gave me my love of magic and will mean that I give my money to see magicians perform live. Had Scam School not existed I wouldn't love magic, I wouldn't want to learn and I wouldn't be planning to go see live shows. I think that Scam School is a great entry point. In fact its about the only entry point for most people, the magician community isn't known for being the most accepting of new people (as this whole thread will attest to).
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Hopefully you'll not be put off of your interest in magic by the less than warm welcome that you are receiving from a few. Not everyone operates under the motto "We're not happy until you're not happy." This just happens to be a hot topic.

Hopefully we'll see you explore magic in its various forms in this and other areas of the Café.
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Tom Cutts
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Dodd, it is a poor characterization to paint those who uphold the Magician's Code and speak out when it is violated in such negative terms. But then after the "My Dad can beat up your dad!" response you gave regarding your Penn and Teller comment I'm not so surprised. If Brian needs someone else to come speak for him, like here, then what is the point?

Furthermore, P&T make no bones about whizzin' all over the Magician's Code. I can respect that they are clear about what they are doing.
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Quote:
On 2009-12-04 14:26, Tom Cutts wrote:
Dodd, it is a poor characterization to paint those who uphold the Magician's Code and speak out when it is violated in such negative terms. But then after the "My Dad can beat up your dad!" response you gave regarding your Penn and Teller comment I'm not so surprised. If Brian needs someone else to come speak for him, like here, then what is the point?


I am not speaking for Brian in any way. I speak only for myself. He certainly has not asked me to do so. I don't have time at the moment to go back over my every post in this thread, but I feel certain that I have only offered my own personal opinion and responded primarily to inquiries directed to me.

In fact, most of my responses were to offer clarification where there was misinformation that may have originated in the show that is under discussion, or to admit where I was misinformed after it was pointed out to me.

As to Twitter, Brian did post something on Twitter, but nowhere that I can find a request by him that anyone come here to defend him. The accusation was that he had summoned some sort of minion to his defense.

He said:
"Magician Scott Wells totally gets it, posts a thoughtful insight on whether Scam School is magic exposure (14th post): http://bit.ly/7HbNJt"

As to P&T, I just threw them as a joke as I think that what should and could be an interesting and insighful conversation had become a bit too strident. Sorry that it fell so flat. Yes, they have given the magician's code the collective finger.

Keep in mind... I ONLY HOSTED THE CONVERSATION... and offered my opinions and thoughts. I appreciate the ongoing dialogue where well reasoned and presented in a manner to inspire conversation. I pretty much ignore being talked "at" instead of talked "to".
Dodd Vickers

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Tom Cutts
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Dodd,

The speaking for him reference was in regard to P&T speaking for him, not you. Which it now turns out was not a serious thing.

Quote:
On 2009-12-04 08:30, DiopticTurtle wrote:
And, forgive my ignorance... But what exactly is a morray? A cursory “TV Guide of my generation” search assumed I was refering to eels.

OK now I'm laughing. Yup, it was late and I didn't stop to review my spelling completely. The word is 'mores". Either you have a very dry sense of humor, or you have never heard the term Social Mores.

But none of that is the funny part. This is: I had an eel as a pet and his name was Mr. Unagi, although technically he was an Unago. So we get a call back to the sushi topic.

I will address your other issues later today. A lot else to do before setting you straight. Smile
magicnewswire
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Quote:
On 2009-12-04 15:09, Tom Cutts wrote:
Dodd,
The speaking for him reference was in regard to P&T speaking for him, not you. Which it now turns out was not a serious thing.


Ahhh.. I missed that entirely. Sorry to have derailed things in any way. Never considered that it might have been read to mean that.

As to "Dodd, it is a poor characterization to paint those who uphold the Magician's Code and speak out when it is violated in such negative terms." I was referring to comments that were dismissive to the possibility that someone might have a valid opinion on the topic simply because they were new to the neighborhood, not that defending the"Code" was a bad thing.

BTW... I ran into a girl with a Husky that she named Akita the other day. Sea Eel vs Freshwater and Siberian Dog VS Japanese... Very confusing.. ;-)
___________________________________________
Our Most Recent Podcasts:
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• This Week in Magic #1 :: Jim Callahan
• Spirit of Magic #178 :: Julie Eng
Spirit of Magic #177 :: Aaron Fisher

BTW.. I am sure that the conversation will continue tomorrow night when we record the next This Week In Magic. In addition to Scott Wells, Cameron Ramsay and myself, new panel member Chase Goforth will join us. Our special guest will be CJ Johnson to talk about marketing yourself as a magic performer. In addition, we'll have a guest co-host, Al the Only who is visiting Scott this weekend. Should prove to be an interesting mix of personalities!

Posted: Dec 5, 2009 10:46pm
One other point, I very enjoy a constructive conversation that makes me consider my position on any issue. I hope that you all will continue to offer such on any topic that is discussed on the any of the Magic Newswire podcasts!
Dodd Vickers

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The Magic Newswire

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phaddad2
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Pazy,

I play cards with my cousins every week and there is at least one argument during the game. When the night is over we are still friends and look forward to next weeks game. that to me is the same thing that is going on here. A little spat, difference of opinion but when all is said and done we all still love magic and look forward to the next hot topic.

Pete
PSYSHADOW
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Every time I read about differences of opinion, I am reminded of a school teacher, many years ago, who shouted at me in class (because I was daydreaming) that I'd 'Never amount to anything' !).

I never knew anyone to be more psychic than her !
Peace in the World - or - the World in Pieces
Slim King
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Everyone wants SOMETHING FOR FREE ... Right?
Why wouldn't they? Of course they will support the one who gives it out .... Unless you have some sense of ethics or CODE ... CODE OF ETHICS Smile

Magicians have such a Code and as you say ... It is being WIZZED ON.

Most don't consider the WHIZZERS to be Magicians anymore ... Simply OPPORTUNISTS.

They can make a buck by Whizzing on the rest of us and somehow say they aren't doing so.

And Pazy ... If you think that Scam School is the only entry point to Magic for most people you couldn't be more WRONG and someone needs to tell you. As you mature in magic you will see that the "Old Timers" were right all along.

KEEP TO THE CODE !!!!!!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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