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DiopticTurtle
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Please, I'd prefer to be called "Whizard". Smile
And clearly there are other entry points to magic, otherwise there wouldn't be any magicians. But apparently not everyone should be allowed to learn magic; only those who've paid their way. That's the idea I can't get behind. If you want to make money with magic, do shows, open a magic supply store. Don't expect to be paid just because you know something. I know a lot of advanced physics, and if someone walked up to me and asked how to find the coefficient of friction in a system, I wouldn't say "go buy my DVD", I would show them for free. If I was planning on making money with it, I would have gotten a job that paid me to use that knowledge, as opposed to just having it.
If following the code to the letter is so important, why not issue and suspend licenses to avoid this sort of situation?
Also, Psychic, please, lay off the caps lock and shift keys, would ya? There's emphasis, and then there's that.
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On 2009-12-03 21:20, Nigromante wrote:
I do have a passion for this art, and a desire to reelevate it to the upper echelons of entertain where it belongs.
In what way did you demostrate that to someone in order to get access to this information?

Quote:
I can't buy all the books and dvds and tricks I'd like to.

What most people fail to realise is that they are unprepared for the responsibilities which come with knowing certain elegant methods. They exhibit their impatience with what they have in their reaching for better methods without fully exploring the ones they already have at their disposal, and the lessons those methods would have taught them. These people don't want to learn magic, they want to learn some tricks.

But the error here is on the part of the provider, who failed to qualify his providee. That is the person who devalued magic by not teaching the lesson of valuing the method. That falls at the feet of Brian Brushwood.

And yes, like it or not, monetary exchange is an accepted qualifyer for one's interest and or sacrifice to have something. It is not perfect but it has proven to be a good general qualifier in the absence of personal interraction. If dislike for the system of monetary exchange had been the reason I'm sure it would have come up in the discussion. It didn't... because it isn't the reason. The real reason is Brian makes a buck off the gig, and he makes more by giving away the secrets, than he would by charging for them. His sponsors foot the bill.

So next time I get a Netflix mailer I'm sending it back to them with a letter explaining that they are supporting a person who is devaluing an art form, and for that reason I will not do business with them.

Quote:
Where the only currency required is desire and passion.
Again, in what way did you exhibit your desire and passion to Brian, or his producers.. or his sponsors?

Quote:
I understand the need to protect our art, and our secrets and methods
Not proven by anything you have expressed here and not by your actions of supporting someone who gives out material with absolutely no system of guaging the recipient's desire and commitment.

Quote:
but I refuse to accept the idea that we should deny those with desire and passion on the grounds that they don't have the cash.
I never said that, did I.

Quote:
Those who seek out these videos to learn the methods and expose us aren't real specs anyways.
Further proof that you don't know much about performing magic.

Quote:
I know this is long, but I'm tired of the worn out idea that Youtube is going to destroy us. It's not and in fact if used correctly and embraced, it will do nothing but enlarge and increase the strength of our art.
Unfortunately, it is being used incorrectly. How do you propose to correct that, Frank?

****************************************************************
Quote:
On 2009-12-04 08:30, DiopticTurtle wrote:
I've sat a few Society of American Magician meetings, and I can tell you, the best magicians don't, in fact, do a lot of magic in the sense of slight of hand, or card tricks, or magic rings.
In that one statement you both exemplify your lack of qualifications to be taken seriously in this discussion, and exemplify what is wrong with the Scum School way of exposing. Tommy Wonder and Fred Kapps are turning over in their graves.

For the rest of the readers: there is a difference between upholding tradition simply because it is tradition, and upholding tradition because it is right. Simply because technology CAN do something doesn't make it RIGHT.

Brian will be paying consequences for his actions proving he doesn't respect the magician's code. Too many who have entered through that doorway have already suffered consequences in their utter lack of valuing an elegant method. It just won't be clear to them until it is too late. Some will find the err of their ways. Most will not.
Slim King
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Quote:
On 2009-12-06 22:53, DiopticTurtle wrote:
Please, I'd prefer to be called "Whizard". Smile
And clearly there are other entry points to magic, otherwise there wouldn't be any magicians. But apparently not everyone should be allowed to learn magic; only those who've paid their way. That's the idea I can't get behind. If you want to make money with magic, do shows, open a magic supply store. Don't expect to be paid just because you know something. I know a lot of advanced physics, and if someone walked up to me and asked how to find the coefficient of friction in a system, I wouldn't say "go buy my DVD", I would show them for free. If I was planning on making money with it, I would have gotten a job that paid me to use that knowledge, as opposed to just having it.
If following the code to the letter is so important, why not issue and suspend licenses to avoid this sort of situation?
Also, Psychic, please, lay off the caps lock and shift keys, would ya? There's emphasis, and then there's that.


Unfortunately Scum School is made up by thinkers such as yourself. Someone with no true ethical concepts who wants to be Spoon Fed everything for FREE!
A LEECH. That fully describes a person who wants Something for Nothing.

KEEP TO THE CODE !!!!!!

I suggest you put Brian Brushwood on with Tom Cutts and Jim Callahan.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Decomposed
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On 2009-12-06 00:27, phaddad2 wrote:
Pazy,

I play cards with my cousins every week and there is at least one argument during the game. When the night is over we are still friends and look forward to next weeks game. that to me is the same thing that is going on here. A little spat, difference of opinion but when all is said and done we all still love magic and look forward to the next hot topic.

Pete


Good stuff, thanks. Reminds me of the old cartoon, sheep dog and wolf.

Candin
phaddad2
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Great cartoon ralph and george
magicnewswire
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As promised in an earlier post, we've continued the conversation in the latest episode of This Week in Magic which was posted a bit earlier today.

Our special guest is CJ Johnson and we continue our conversation on marketing, exposure and the many ways that you might be leaving money on the table. In addition to our regular co-hosts Scott Wells, Cameron Ramsay and myself, we've added a new member to the panel Chase Goforth. Al The Only was also in town visiting Scott and agreed to participate in the conversation. IMHO, there are some great ideas in the marketing portion of this episode for every performer!

Listen to the latest episode HERE
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DiopticTurtle
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In that one statement you both exemplify your lack of qualifications to be taken seriously in this discussion, and exemplify what is wrong with the Scum School way of exposing. Tommy Wonder and Fred Kapps are turning over in their graves. (Tom Cutts, 12/7/09)



Please don't insult me by taking a quote out of context. I like to build my case by intelligent writing. Sometimes that takes more than once sentence.

Quote:

...there is a difference between upholding tradition simply because it is tradition, and upholding tradition because it is right. Simply because technology CAN do something doesn't make it RIGHT. (Tom Cutts, 12/7/09)



I completely agree. However, I believe that rules change over time. With new advances in technology, come new challenges and ethical dilemmas, and they must be constantly considered and be implemented into revisions. While there are no standing clarifications on this issue, as I feel magic is too poorly organized to widely accomplish much in this vein, it is up to the individual to decide for themselves what is right or wrong. I see nothing wrong with Scam School, but instead see a group of outdated elitists who attack from behind the curtain of tradition and morality. Things change, especially morality. Hitting your wife used to be accepted. Believing you were better than someone because of the color of your skin used to be accepted. People used to believe that they were better than someone else because they were born to different parents. More specifically, you seem to be fighting the internet itself. It represents a free exchange of ideas and information, and I can understand why that would be harmful to the old ways of magic. But remember, nothing stays the same. The times move, and it is up to you whether you want to move with them or try to slow them down.


Quote:

Brian will be paying consequences for his actions proving he doesn't respect the magician's code. Too many who have entered through that doorway have already suffered consequences in their utter lack of valuing an elegant method. It just won't be clear to them until it is too late. Some will find the err of their ways. Most will not. (Tom Cutts, 12/7/09)



You keep making these vague threats upon Brian and magicians like him. “...will be paying the consequences...” “...won't be clear to them until it is too late.” What exactly do you have in mind? Are you going to break our thumbs? Maybe confiscate our top hats and rabbits? I am curious to see how you plan on enforcing this imagined slight..
I get the feeling that the people who “suffered consequences” were people who were treated to an undue verbal abuse session by people like you. Do you think that they left saying “Wow, he's right” or thinking, “Wow, what a jerk”? And you also generalize that because they came to magic from a free, widely distributed source that they don't value an “elegant method”? Where does that assumption come in? And what do you mean “elegant method”? Flowery writing is nice and all, but it's better if you make sense. On that note, “err” is a verb, not a noun.



Quote:

Unfortunately Scum School is made up by thinkers such as yourself. Someone with no true ethical concepts who wants to be Spoon Fed everything for FREE!
A LEECH. That fully describes a person who wants Something for Nothing. (Psychic Samurai, 12/7/09)



Again, I am unfairly characterized as an amoral person because I believe in the exchange of knowledge without the pricetag. I am no more of a leech than your average public school student! Although thinking about that, I might not want to make that comparison. Smile
Giving something and getting nothing is how I live my life. What I have, I am happy to give. I am constantly in search of more to learn, and more to give back. If I can learn how to perform magic to entertain someone by either studying a free show, or by buying expensive and usually unhelpful DVDs, there is no contest.
I am sure there are people out there who aren't in it for the same reason I am, but it's unfair to nail the Scam School viewers to the cross because you generalize their motives.
Oh, and just a caution here, I believe that calling someone an unethical leech, directly or indirectly, is against board rules.

Also, an unslanted question. Why does my post count still say zero? Is it going to just stay down until I meet a certain number? It's not important, it's just something that's been bugging me.
phaddad2
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Turtle,
I agree with much of what you said but, as an older magician it is hard not to long for the days when much of this information was limited to one on one teachings and books that you had to make more of an effort to locate and read. Much of the video generation is learn a trick perform it once then you forget it and get a new trick to perform. It seems that today(at times myself included) we don't perform the effect as much as we do tricks.
Pete
Slim King
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Hitting your wife has NEVER been acceptable behavior (Not by ANYONE I've ever met in the US or abroad) ... You LIE!

And it is that Dark Side of you that supports breaking the Magicians Code!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
magicnewswire
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Quote:
On 2009-12-08 20:10, Psychic Samurai wrote:
Hitting your wife has NEVER been acceptable behavior (Not by ANYONE I've ever met in the US or abroad) ... You LIE!

And it is that Dark Side of you that supports breaking the Magicians Code!


Ok.. I hate to even say anything on this. Obviously, there is no reason to hit anyone unless you are defending yourself or your family. Bullying is just wrong. I have a son with a disability, and you can imagine how hard it is for me, as an ex-military spec ops guy to deal with teasing and bullying in todays public school environment.

That said,you could not be more wrong to think that society, through the ages, hasn't seen it as acceptable to hit your wife. Look up the history of chattel. Wives were considered property in many societies, and in some that is still the case. Saying that it is not so is simply naive.

That said, touch/threaten my wife or son, and you'll have a world of hurt to deal with. Sadly , not all cultures consider women on par with men. Keep in mind that women were only given the option to vote for their representatives in the US only a few decades ago.

Therefore, his statement is not a "lie" as you characterized it.

There is a huge construction boom in Dubai. There are BILLIONS of dollars being wasted in these projects to construct separate hallways for men and women. In many middle eastern cultures, other men, not the husbands or families of the woman in question, can assault a woman in the street that is considered to be dressed inappropriately or to behave in a way that they see as unacceptable. Dare I even mention the fact that female circumcision is a common practice in many cultures. Sad but true.

I could go on and on, but you have surely learned from your error by now.
Dodd Vickers

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magicnewswire
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Scam School was just named by iTunes as one of the "Top Podcast for 2009" . This is the second year in a row that the show has been recognized in the annual list. READ MORE 2nd Year in a Row!
Dodd Vickers

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Tom Cutts
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Turtle, it's not out of context. It is what you wrote. I just can't take anything you say seriously after such a foolish statement. You don't understand greatness and you have no idea what an elegant method is. And this is precisely the typical thinking for people who learn secrets without learning the responsibilities which go along with them.
Slim King
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I REPEAT (Despite all the double talk) BEATING YOUR WIFE IS UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR !!!! PERIOD !!!!

Thank's Dodd for helping to prove my point.

On your podcast you agree that the exposure is OK since very few people see it but now they seem to be one of the biggest exposers of all ... They get an award for revealing magic secrets ... WOW !!!!!!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
DiopticTurtle
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Quote:

Turtle,
I agree with much of what you said but, as an older magician it is hard not to long for the days when much of this information was limited to one on one teachings and books that you had to make more of an effort to locate and read. Much of the video generation is learn a trick perform it once then you forget it and get a new trick to perform. It seems that today(at times myself included) we don't perform the effect as much as we do tricks.
Pete
(Pete ((phaddad2)), 12/8/09)



I'd be one of the first to agree that my generation is ruining everything. But then again, so did your generation. And your parents' generation. Splitting off from the traditions and creating a new norm is part of aging. I was speaking with my father earlier, and he expressed to me the shock of how life had progressed. My father was part of the 'flower child' generation (although he swears he never was one of them), the generation best known for rebelling against the system. The real revelation came to him in that his generation was the one that created Gitmo, and instituted the DHS. He realized his generation had become The Man. Currently my generation is in the rebellious youth stage, and I feel will be until we have our own rebellious children. I realize that I'm making my point in a fairly roundabout way, but there are and will always be people who don't have the focus to learn the trick and the effect, and instead focus on the part that they perceive will have the most impact. Unfortunately, I feel they usually choose wrong. The people who move from trick to trick will likely lose interest in magic altogether.

Quote:

Turtle, it's not out of context. It is what you wrote. I just can't take anything you say seriously after such a foolish statement. You don't understand greatness and you have no idea what an elegant method is. And this is precisely the typical thinking for people who learn secrets without learning the responsibilities which go along with them. (Tom Cutts, 12/9/09)



The reason we establish context, Mr. Cutts, is to properly and fairly convey the tone and intent of the person quoted. Otherwise I could do this :

Quote:

Turtle... I just...take anything you say seriously...You... understand greatness... (Tom Cutts, 12/9/09)



Probably not exactly the point you meant to get across. If one does not establish proper context, all one is doing is cherry-picking the words to argue against with no respect for the intent of the person quoted. I find that sort of practice extremely immature and insulting, don't you?
If insult was not intended, I believe that you must have missed the point of my post.

Quote:

I REPEAT (Despite all the double talk) BEATING YOUR WIFE IS UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR !!!! PERIOD !!!!

Thank's Dodd for helping to prove my point.

On your podcast you agree that the exposure is OK since very few people see it but now they seem to be one of the biggest exposers of all ... They get an award for revealing magic secrets ... WOW !!!!!!
(Psychic Samurai, 12/9/09)



First off, I'd like to say that fourteen exclamation points across four complete sentences has got to be some kind of record.
Secondly, it's history. You can't deny that women were considered unequal, to the point of being property in many cultures, as magicnewswire pointed out. A few years ago, every few days there would be a headline about some poor woman being stoned to death in her country because she wanted to exercise a basic freedom that we enjoy daily. It is sad and I find it reprehensible. Unfortunately that doesn't make it any less real.

And they didn't get an award for exposing secrets, they got an award for making an interesting and popular show. Being mature costs nothing.


And yet again, I am being told what I do and do not understand or appreciate. How exactly do you measure my quantity of respect? Dedication and respect are concepts, not concrete nouns. You tell me that people have to be judged worthy before they can be accepted and taught the 'higher level' tricks. I asked you how. No direct answer, but the implication was one must buy their way into the inner circle. I asked what you meant by “elegant method” because the meaning was unclear to me. Again, the question was not addressed. I am still unsure as to what you meant. I am frankly a little offended that this is how a new member of the board is treated.
I came to this site to follow an argument, and decided to join and weigh-in because the argument was extraordinarily one-sided. It's interesting that the example I used drew more argument than the points I've been making. It's sort of frustrating that the actual argument points aren't being addressed. I am interested in hearing the counterpoints to these arguments, but other than assaults on my character, the responses have been devoid of real content.
I enjoy playing the devil's advocate, but in this case I side with Scam School because I truly believe it is being done an injustice. I have put myself in your position, and understand why one would be intimidated by the show and feel you have to protect the older way of doing magic, but deep down, do you really disagree with Scam School? Or do you just not want things to change?
Slim King
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So your logic is that since many have abused and beaten their wives it is just fine to abuse and expose magic secrets? RIGHT !!!!!!! Smile

Scam School is exposing magic secrets that magicians still use today ... TRUE or FALSE?

Scam School is being paid for this exposure by Go-Daddy and their other sponsors ... TRUE or FALSE?

Scam School is breaking the Magicians Code ..... TRUE or FALSE?

It is obvious that you expect "Something For Nothing" ... There's a name for folks like that Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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Quote:
On 2009-12-03 15:52, magicnewswire wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-02 20:04, Psychic Samurai wrote:
He's exposing methods that are still used by mentalist and magicians alike.
Now what about the other dozen or so effects that he DOES Expose on Youtube for anyone to view?


There are only a few episodes on YouTube. Brian has done 90 shows to date and you can find them all HERE
I would be very interested in which specific episodes and effects you feel should not have been taught on the show.


I don't feel he should have taught blockhead, how to put out a lit cigarette on the tongue, and several similar side-show stunts. They are too dangerous.

Apart from that, I think scam school actually does more good than harm. Then again, I don't think it really teaches anything that can't be picked up from the local library. There is an expectation that you will actually present the effects taught...
magicnewswire
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Lee Asher is my guest on the latest episode of the Spirit of Magic podcast. We talk about everything from the way that magic is perceived in Asia to the exposure of magic and the role of the Internet in the education of today's new magic enthusiasts . He even compares the sharing of information to "exposure."

YOU CAN LISTEN HERE
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taikuutta
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Personally I have no problems with exposure. If it hurts your career, I think you should train and think more to be a better magician.

Kids are always exposing tricks, that's what kids do. If you still can't fool those kids with the same arsenal of methods, man you should really take a good look in to mirror.
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I'm new here and finding this discussion quite interesting. Been watching guys like David Copperfield, Criss Angel, and Penn & Teller for a LOT of years and have spent much more money than I probably should have going to a LOT of shows.

Even with that show going experience I've never actually heard what the "code of magic" actually entailed. So I did a Google search for it. Among the other pages listed ,both relevant and not, I got this link: http://www.spookclub.com/codeofethics.php

Now I find that funny that the first page I hit with the actual code written down has a frame on the right side of the page with scrolling links to literally hundreds of books and tricks for sale. That would seem to me to clearly violate rule #1 which reads, "Oppose the willful exposure to the public of any principles of the Art of Magic, or the methods employed in any magic effect or illusion."

Everyone has to start learning the art somehwere. What makes the fact that I order a book off the internet a valid choice for showing that I'm interested in magic and watching Scam School or even a Penn & Teller show an invalid choice for showing I'm interested in magic?

Of course I expect this question to be ignored by the Psychic Samauri as he's ignored every single valid question asked so far. I would however appreciate a response from others to this legitimate question.
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Oz,
It does seem to be a bit of a Contradiction doesn't it. but in magic everything that happens defies logic so why shouldn't this.
Pete
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