Having looked at many of those old, bad, pamphlets; I can tell you from experience -when they're OLD and bad, they're REALLY bad.

I don't know...

I am fairly regularly sent "new" material in ebooks for review, and I sometimes wonder if the person writing them has ever even read a magic book--or a grammar book! At least the vast majority of the OLD bad stuff wasn't written by a 12 year old kid who bought 2 tricks over The Internet and thought that qualified him to write an ebook on magic.

I think Penguin has come a long way. I was not a fan when they first started, but they shored up some things. I've purchased some stuff from them over the years. Some good, some lame--just like almost everyone else. I think some of their "staff magicians" are very good, and some only OK, but none are what I would label "bad."

The way I see it is that they don't have to offer free stuff at all. If you don't like the free bonus stuff, don't take them up on it.

magiclimber, no offense, but Jeff Corn is right--you contradict yourself when you talk about learning from the classic texts and then show that you are not aware "The Discoverie of Witchcraft" is the first printed book on magic tricks. Many of the "new, cutting edge" material that keeps getting reinvented can be found there, or at least the basic principle is there. David Blaine wowed the public AND many magicians with stuff that can be found in books well over a hundred years old (like bringing a fly back to life, or the ashes on the arm thing, for example).

In other words, Swami Mantra made him lots of money.

When it comes down to it, Penguin prices are hard to beat.

They are. The only thing that would really make me feel better about them was if they had a B&M shop on top of the internet, but I understand why they wouldn't have one in Vegas. It's hard to beat Denny and Lee's.

It's hard to beat Denny and Lee's because supporting them IS the right way to learn magic (or part of it).

I guess I haven't explained my opinions adequately, or maybe I'm the only one.

There are several facets to learn magic the "right way" (or what I call the right way).

As far as "Discoverie of Witchcraft" I was not aware that this was a classic text. I also feel that the fact that I didn't know one book (and probably many more) doesn't mean I'm contradicting myself. It simply means that I am a student of magic who doesn't know or claim to know every magic book ever written. I still maintain the opinion that (part of) the right way to learn magic is from reading. I have a list of tons of books, old and new, that I wish to read. The reason: If they are classic texts, then there is something valuable to be learned. I'm sure that list should be longer, too.

To attempt to better describe my viewpoint, here is a summary of what I call the "right way"

1) Read classic texts, for the reasons mentioned above. All of them.
2) Learn classic routines and study WHY they are successful.
3) Only after one is knowledgeable, should they consider buying gimmicks and DVD's that deal with a certain plot. For example, the popular card trick Triumph, from Stars of Magic. I would say the correct way to learn this trick would be to FIRST consult the original resource, in this case, Stars of Magic and Dai Vernon, I believe. (Although, I'm sure the idea of magically sorting cards wasn't invented by him, the trick triumph was). After reading, studying, and learning the original version, then I would say its ok to consult DVDs source such as Penguin's Triumph which teaches and focuses on several handlings. I am aware that Penguin's version teaching Dai Vernon's handing, which is good, but I would say the most logical way to learn is to consult the original reference. And, no offense to Oz Pearlman, but I would rather learn from Dai Vernon, than Oz. Don't get me wrong, I would say Oz is good teacher (better than me for sure) but Dai Vernon was prolific.

So I'm not saying don't buy the DVD, I'm just saying don't buy it first. To me, Penguin has never made any attempt to point me into the direction of the original routine of anything. Rather, they want you to buy their DVD, which means more money for them. However, I called Denny and Lee's and asked him about a certain card to wallet, and rather than sell me the wallet on the spot, he pointed me to a book about all the card to wallets, which was cheaper. Now, that's good customer service! I think his reason was to properly inform me about the card to wallet plot, and then I can make an informed decision. At the time, I didn't want to hear that, but in retrospect I am happy that he pointed me in what I would call the "right way" His actions have clearly made me rethink how I purchase magic, which is what I'm attempting to convey now.

That kind of leads me to another point:

4) Support brick and mortar shops, as long as their are good shops. Ex. When I call Denny and Lee's I talk to Denny, a well informed magician who can answer my questions as well as provide recommendations. When I call penguin I talk to someone who is not a magician. To me it's no contest. If I had to pick between one shop, I would much rather have Denny and Lee than Penguin, although Penguin does have a few advantages (mainly prices). However Denny's prices are fairly competitive. I think supporting these types of shops is important so we will continue to have knowledgeable sources and people who truly care about their products (I cannot speak for Penguin's true motives, but I know Denny loves magic and would only give advice to help a fellow magician).

Bottom line #1, I would rather support and give my money to Denny and Lee than Penguin.
Bottom line #2, my opinion, and it is just one opinion, is that reading classic magic is the right way to learn.

This has nothing to do with the promo conversation, but the subject came up, so I will give my opinion.

I hope I am adequately conveyed my opinions, something very hard to do via the internet.

Now, I'm going to sleep!

Magiclimber wrote:


This is not entirely true. Vernon learned from many other sources. He wasn't just a student of Erdnase.

And, as has already been pointed out, Discoverie of Witchcraft had a section (Booke 13) that was partially devoted to what was then called "Naturall Magicke," i.e. sleight of hand and conjuring. In fact, Discoverie was written to show the people who were persecuting the so-called witches that the official idea of witchcraft had nothing to do with the occult at all.

I could, in fact, fool you with material taken directly from this book.

So, why is Discoverie of Witchcraft important? It was one of the first two printed books to contain information about "legerdemaine." The other was the Prevost book, Clever and Pleasant Inventions, which was unearthed by our own Master Payne. Both books were published in 1584. Many of the tricks that we fool our audiences with were first described on the pages of these two books.

These are two of the giants upon whose shoulders we stand. Granted, most modern magicians have no idea who they were or what they wrote. But if you do the cut and restored rope, you very well may be using a method that was first described in one of these books.

Mainly erdnase! I said mainly erdnase! because Vernon said it was the best book on card magic, and did all but memorize it page for page!

When the heck did I say he was only a student of erdnase?!?!?!

I give up!

Okay, let's use Triumph as a great example, since you mentioned it. The method in Stars of Magic isn't the method that Vernon used for the trick. Vernon used a Block Transfer, but didn't put it in the book because of the difficulty of, not only the move, but writing it up. With that knowledge now, does it make the Stars of Magic handling more "correct" to learn or should we go to the Johnny Thompson video that explains, not only the psychology behind the routine, but the original method?

By the way, I'm not trying to attack you or your opinions, because obviously, I have my own as well. They're just that, ours. Neither is truly right or wrong. I have to point that out because so many people get really touchy here.

The reason that you were accused of contradicting yourself is because Discoverie of Witchcraft, while not THE first book on magical methods, was the most popular. It's commonly accepted as the first book on magical methods. It was published centuries ago to stop common magicians from being burned at the stake by religious fanatics, as was the common practice at the time. That's why I brought it up. It's THE classic text to learn from and a few of the methods would still hold up today. If we as a community were only to learn from the classics first, then that's the book you should start with. The contradiction was that you didn't know about this book while saying that we should go to the classic books first.

Personally, I love the classics. I find myself going through the Greater Magic series quite a bit. I also go through Darwin Ortiz' books, the Vernon Revelations videos as well as his Inner Secrets Trilogy, Bill Malone's DVD sets, and Ben Earl's set. Different decades, different styles of artist, different styles of presentation. One thing to remember is that there really is no right or official way to learn magic. Magic as a profession, no matter how personal, needs to be more about entertaining your audience. You should learn from anyone and everyone you can. I learn just as much from guys like Kevin Parker as I do from the masters. From them, I learn how to completely avoid the entertaining aspect of magic and everything I need to avoid, which is just as important as learning new tricks, if not more so. I'm all for learning from the classics, but you shouldn't discount the newer stuff and the knowledge that they can put into it.

You bring up several good points.

I would classify any method of triumph taught or performed by Vernon as the right way, not necessarily from stars of magic or using that particular shuffle.

I still feel that I haven't not really properly communicated what I'm attempting to say, but oh well.

I strongly agree with your last paragraph. Its also sounds like you are pretty much learning the "right way" although I do understand this is just an opinion. My problem lies with people who shop at illusionist and penguin, etc., and attempt to learn from free you tube videos, often watching explanations that are completely wrong. I have seen this first hand with a family friend, that's 11 years old. I tried to explain to him that he should buy books like Mark Wilson's course for example rather than the newest DVD twist on the invisible deck. (more magic for less money = great for a beginner) I gave him this book for Christmas and as he flipped through the pages, he commented that "he doesn't have to buy torn 2 anymore", once he saw a method of T&R card in Wilson's book. (Don't get me wrong Daniel Garcia is a great magician and a super nice guy). But the boy thought that Daniel Garcia invented the torn and restored card!

I believe its the obligation of knowledgeable magicians to at least inform people of such things.

My point is that many people don't even realize what their buying sometimes, and I feel some companies exploit this naivety or at the least play into it, often targeting kids. I think people who truly care about magic would want to research the history behind various effects, and study in a broader sense, rather than learning torn 2 and being done. (which is what you touched on, i.e. learning from everyone.

I feel this way because as a child interested in magic, I was exactly the same way, buying gimmick after gimmick, but not learning in an efficient manner. Once my respect for magic grew, I became interested in the history and wanted to read the older books that everyone raved about. I don't think there is a hard and fast rule on which book to read first, but I do believe reading and studying in a broader sense is part of what I call the "right way"

Actually this isn't quite true. Though I knew about Prevost's book it was actually Steve Minch who knew where to find it and how to gain access to it. He had mentioned it to me in passing at one time he was interested in having it translated into English and publishing it. He however didn't know anyone who could do the translation. In 1988 I went to England with a group of re-enactors from LA to do some living history work for several Faires and Festivals being held to commemorate the 400th anniversary of the sinking of the Spanish Armada. One of our troupe, Sharon King, had a degree in mediaeval romance languages and could translate renaissance French. I introduced her to Steve and she did the initial translation for him. This was then gone over by Todd Karr who made some adjustments in the vernacular as he was familiar with conjuring terms that Sharon was unaware of.

I was given a presentation copy of the book when it was published and eventually I have had it signed by Steve, Sharon and Todd.

So really I played a very small role in getting this project to fruition. Mr. Minch Mr. Karr and Ms. King did all of the real work

Penguin has some cool stuff, yeah.

But if I wanted some sort of counsulting, I'd look for people who make their living out of DOING magic, not selling it. Its two absolutely different extremes.

Fabio, nice job getting back on topic.

Nicely said as well.

This thread epitomizes this forum's hostility. SMH.