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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2010-01-03 15:29, EsnRedshirt wrote: I don’t know the specifics about the steel industry, so I’m not sure why we would import expensive steel rather than use cheaper, domestic steel. Two possibilities that spring to mind are that the domestic supply might be insufficient, or buyers might have long-term contracts with foreign suppliers. Quote:
On 2010-01-03 15:29, EsnRedshirt wrote: Suppose that without a tariff a foreign car would cost $30,000 in the US, but with the tariff the cost is $35,000, and that a US company can sell a comparable car for $34,000. Several things happen when the tariff is imposed and the price of the foreign car in the US rises by $5,000: • Domestic demand for cars decreases, because the price has risen • Imports of foreign cars declines • Domestic tax revenues increase somewhat • Domestic production of cars increases, because the price has risen • Domestic production of goods (and services) other than cars decreases, because workers who could be producing other goods and services are moved to car production Thus, domestic car producers and domestic government gain, while foreign producers and domestic consumers lose. The gains do not equal the losses, however, because of deadweight losses to both domestic producers and domestic consumers. In essence, the tariffs take productive resources that could be used for goods and services for which the US has a comparative economic advantage (and maybe an absolute economic advantage) and uses them to produce cars, for which the US has an economic disadvantage. Quote:
On 2010-01-03 15:29, EsnRedshirt wrote: You’re probably right, at least with respect to some domestic industries. The question to ask is whether those are the industries we should be encouraging domestically, or whether we’d be better off developing other industries. Like foreign currency trading, maybe. |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
That is it! 300,000,000 plus people trading in foriegn currency! Perfect idea, say, how about this, everyone can live off their investments! Yeah! Economist...too many of 'em.
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
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Domestic production of goods (and services) other than cars decreases, because workers who could be producing other goods and services are moved to car production S2000, this is the only real point I'll disagree with you on, because, well, 10% unemployment means you've got a ready supply of workers, and don't need to pull people off other services to produce cars. Besides, if we focus on industries we do well with- steel, medical equipment, etc... You know what I'm saying. I don't doubt that tariffs will have a negative impact on foreign trade and business, but other countries use tariffs as a form of economic protectionism for their own workers and economy, so I'm going to say we should do the same- I've got to live here, after all, and a strong domestic economy has social as well as economic benefits.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-01-04 01:21, EsnRedshirt wrote: I should have mentioned not only workers who could be used for the production of other goods and services, but raw materials and technology as well. I agree that at the moment we have unemployed workers who might be added profitably to automobile production lines (or whatever) if tariffs were imposed and domestic production increased. This may be a short-term solution to the domestic unemployment problem (not necessarily a good nor a reasonable solution), but it doesn't solve the long-term problem of the US producing goods and services that are economically unsound (and at the expense of its own consumers). By adding workers to produce more of a good we shouldn't be producing, we make it all that much harder to move them to the production of the goods and services we should be producing when we reach sustainable full employment; in short, the short-term solution prolongs the long-term problem. At the expense of US consumers. The argument that they're doing something that's economically unsound, so we should fight it by doing the same economically unsound something is a difficult one to support. Doug Higley was driving in this direction when he recommended extrapolating the long-term consequences of short-term policies. |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
This is the ongoing tension between the short term and the long term. It is not easy to tell workers that their immediate futures should be sacrificed for the long-term economic health of the country. This is precisely what was behind all the "Buy American" clauses, and what is behind most tariffs and trade wars.
John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Michael J. Douglas Inner circle WV, USA 1645 Posts |
Didn't we (the US) put new tariffs on Chinese tires a few months ago? How's that working out? Unions seem to like 'em. Even so, the man in the White House says he's against protectionism.
Michael J.
�Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.� --from Shakespeare�s �As You Like It� |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
The USA is A Service Economy: Services produced by private industry accounted for 67.8 percent of U.S. gross domestic product in 2006, with real estate and financial services such as banking, insurance, and investment on top. Some other categories of services are wholesale and retail sales; transportation; health care; legal, scientific, and management services; education; arts; entertainment; recreation; hotels and other accommodation; restaurants, bars, and other food and beverage services. Production of goods accounted for 19.8 percent of GDP: manufacturing — such as computers, autos, aircraft, machinery. 12.1 percent; construction, 4.9 percent; oil and gas drilling and other mining, 1.9 percent; agriculture, less than 1 percent. Federal, state, and local governments accounted for the rest — 12.4 percent of GDP.
That was 2006 and don’t expect it has changed much since. What surprised me was what a small % agriculture plays in the USA economy; “less than 1 percent” If I was the USA I would try and increase that substantially as that if nothing else always in demand and anything would help the people through hard times is cheap food, I foresee the price of food skyrocketing in the near future as the $ goes down. But the Gov are so out of touch with the people that they will be soon saying, "Let them eat cake."
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
The plus side to another "French Revolution":
I know how to properly build and operate guillotines.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Gee, I work with a guy who makes $12 an hour who owned a financial business....those people are losing jobs in droves, or already have. I'm happy to see those suggesting the US become a poor nation, that is the only way for the scumbag countries to be able to achieve some sense of success I guess. I've an idea, lets go back to the ideas of George Washington, basically trade with everyone but other than that screw 'em.
Tarrifs, or duties, have two general purposes, to limit trade and a source of income for the govt.. People want duties eliminated for wonderful reasons like free trade and to reduce cost. It NEVER reduces cost, it increases profits for those who manufacture the goods, in fact they may raise the price again just because they had to recalculate their profits and it cost money to pay the accountant to do that. Believe me, I worked for a company that had duties reduced to zero and we didn't lower our prices a bit. Did any of you, and I know you don't care, know that a great many Chinese ex pats are not happy with the way the US has handed the keys to the castle to China? The govt is still oppressive, the people are still treated in a horrible manner, and we are making their system look like it is working! The people of China want a democratic country with successful manufacturing but let them try and watch how they get crushed. So not only do you not understand how real world business works you don't care about the people it hurts...way to go! |
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Thetruthteller New user 93 Posts |
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On 2010-01-04 14:03, MagicSanta wrote: I was always told that a completely free and unfetered market was the only way to achieve freedom. We are free to work for whoever we choose and if they refuse to pay us what we feel we are worth then we are free to find employment with someone who will. Only the uneducated and lazy are incapable of finding gainful employment. At least that's what I've always been told. |
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
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On 2010-01-04 15:30, Thetruthteller wrote: Wow, so 10% of the US population is lazy or ignorant? I used to bend free-market libertarian. Unfortunately, if it's a model that does work, I've never seen it working. From what I've seen in the real world, an unregulated market only allows the bullies to move in, and ends up stifling free trade. Hey- don't want to work for someone paying you $6.00 an hour? Go ahead and quit- your company owns 65% of the market, and the other 35% outsources the job you do. The industrious and educated do have an edge in the job market, but it's also about having connections and being lucky, especially in an economy this tight. I'm in 100% agreement with MagicSanta on this issue.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
The USA gets its imported goods for nothing in effect anyway. The USA prints money and uses it to buy goods and the countries that accept the $ use it to buy oil, which they need but can not buy with any other currency. In other words its all a big scam. If it was not for that fact no one would accept the $ because its worthless.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
I happen to be neither lazy nor uneducated but there are certain limitations to job 'gettin' when it comes to age. They also hold the fact you spent 23 years with one company against you. Where I work they went from traditionally having a pack of teens and early 20's to middle aged educated people.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If you had any brains you would not be working for anyone they would be working for you. Get real Santa.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
In my experience it's just the opposite. The dumber someone is the higher they get in management.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
It just seems that way because once they are incompetant, they are not promoted. Therefore they stay at a job they are pretty poor at.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/con......+stories http://www.envisionsoftware.com/articles......ple.html
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Sorry Tommy, I work for companies because of the insurance. My wife is an invalid and the insurance they provide is what keeps her alive.
What you, Critter and Danny, are refering to is the Peter Principle. It states that all people rise to their level of incompatence, and I just saw where the link says Peter Principle....so you know that. It is true by the way. |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Doesn't anyone here think unions are a BIG part of the problem? Production line workers making 30 and 40 dollars and hour plus benefits because of senority. Everyone is entitled to make a decent wage. However that does not mean that production workers should make what someone with 4 to 10 years of schoolinig and earning a BS or masters or PHD makes. Do school teachers desereve to make 40 an hour plus benefits? Remember there is an abundance of school teachers it is not like the demand is more than the supply (try and get a job as a teacher in our area and if you are not connected you are SOL). Before you jump all over me about the wage teachers make, figure how many hours the average school teacher works in a year. Also if you have taken notice that teachers absoutely refuse to let themselves be tested once hired. You don't see many teachers seeking another profession ever wonder why? Would you leave a job with that kind of security and benefits and summer off and holidays off plus medical benefits that you could only dream of ..remember they only work 180 days a year. So why are many production workers and shcool teachers and lets get to the police also making what they do? UNIONS. Ever try and have a police officer disciplined? It does not happen unless he killed or beat someone and was caught on tape. Then it is still difficult. That is not to say I would want their job, but it is their chosen profession and they should do their duty and they are not above discipline. Started to ramble here a little. but if you lived in the area I live in you woudl realize how corrput the system is. Check out the corruption in Luzerne county in Pa. Judges, council men, school adminstrators, and county comminsioners have been arrested by the FBI in our area in the last few months of 2009 and it is still an ongoing investigation. A real shambles in Luzerne County in Pa. Google it and find out. Judges were sending kids to lock ups because they were making money in doing so. This is getting way off topic but I get really POed when I hear why we as a country are in the position we are now in..A simple answer is GREED from unions to Nepotism and out right stealing.
Heck way off topic. But I feel better.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
Aces- I'd argue just the opposite. In fact, since the hayday of labor, union membership is way down. Sure, there are crooked unions- but when bankers manage to tank a bunch of seniors' 401k's, having that union pension is a good thing.
Corporations have been systematically taking apart unions for years, and it's led to the decline of the American middle class, starting with manufacturing, then going right on down the line into IT and other technical areas- which, for the upper class, is just fine, since they make more money outsourcing that work to China and India. Those of us in the middle class, however, look at the shrinking supply of middle-class employment, and we're getting very nervous- we've got college degrees, too, and don't want to waste them working at McDonalds.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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