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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Maybe it's because everybody and his dog is turning out books, pamphlets, and videos, but far, far too many magicians want to jump in with the latest thing, without any knowledge or understanding of what went before.
Recently, a young performer e-mailed me for advice on an upcoming show. He was looking for a major production for his high-school variety revue. (I only add that to justify my use of the word "young" earlier; it happens with older magicians, too, but it is far more prevalent among younger ones.) Not knowing his skill level or anything much else about him, I suggested a large square circle to produce items from different courses, and theme the whole production as school-related. He thought the idea was great . . . BUT (there's always a "but") . . . he had no idea what a square circle was. I patiently explained it to him (after all, as I have said before, nobody is born knowing this stuff). But I found it a bit sad. Here was a young man, doing a magic stage show for a couple of hundred people, and didn't know one of the very basic production devices that has been around for a couple of hundred years. I didn't say anything at the time. But I will now. If you are just starting out or, even if you have been in magic for a couple of years, LEARN THE BASICS AND CLASSICS! Pretty much every sleight and prop today is based on something that went before. So, if you don't know where you came from, how can you know where you're going? (I hate to sound like one of those pedantic old geezers that hang out at magic conventions -- but, in this case, it had to be said.) cheers, Peter Marucci showtimecol@aol.com |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Well said, Peter! I couldn't agree more! In fact, one of my pet peeves is when people credit moves to the performer on a video, who wasn't the creator. Like, "Ammar's Elmsley Count." (!) Or, "Daryl's classic force" etc.
I had a kid who wanted me to give him lessons. I went over to his house to talk to him about it. He had 85 card magic videos--that rivals the amount in my own library. I asked him what he wanted to learn. He responded, I want to learn some of your strongest card tricks. I pointed out that he already had TONS of card tricks sitting on his shelf, and that what I would like to do was to help him to learn to present the tricks he already knew in an entertaining manner, and in a logical order with a definite start, middle and finish. He made a face, and I knew I couldn't help him. So I refused to give him lessons, saying that he had nothing to learn from me. Study the classics, choose a few routines that appeal to you, learn them well, add your own little touches and put together an entertaining show. THAT'S how the famous magicians got famous!
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
re;
Like, "Ammar's Elmsley Count." (!) Or, "Daryl's classic force" etc. Yep! Got that myself the other night, Ammar's "Twins" routine mentioned from the Not So Easy To Master Card Miracles. I agree with both of you. Too many want to just jump straight in at the deep end and run before they can walk, thinking the latest "hot" book or video will bring them right up to speed. At least this forum can be useful to the ones that really want to learn, as for the others, they will never be true performers whilst they still have holes in their *****. Peter, I hate to say it, but we now ARE those pedantic old geezers that hang out at magic conventions lol. I will soon be hanging out at The Perterborough Day of Magic, The Bristol Day of Magic and The Leeds Convention Paul |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Peter and Scott, Well Said, And for Paul, I refuse to be old! (55) Yes, I'm fat and bald, but that will not stop me from my dream of doing Illusion shows, it's just that I won't pawn myself off as the young studs heart thobs of today.
My memory is failing, so I don't remember who did what, so I can't credit the right people. I'll let others do that. Question for the three pros above. I have a beautiful stage Square Circle, but it is not quite that, but functions the same way. The outside box has a grate (common) but the inside does not have the cylinder, it is another beautiful designed box. No cyliders except for the "gimmick" which is the same. The unit sits on a table designed for it with wooden legs about 18-inches off the floor. It looks brand new but I think it is an older trick. Large load capability If it had a name instead of Square Circle (Square box and Cylindar), I would call it Square Square (Box and Box). Do you have a name for it?
Dennis Michael
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Paul,
Durn it! You're probably right about the "old geezer" bit. I was hoping nobody would notice! cheers, Peter Marucci showtimecol@aol.com |
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Dave Le Fevre Inner circle UK 1666 Posts |
I'm also 55 years young. And on another forum, it was suggested that we oldsters be called the "Nifty, Shifty, Double Lifty, Fifty-Plus Club".
Dave
The Ozzy Osbourne of the 34x27
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
re;
"Nifty, Shifty, Double Lifty, Fifty-Plus Club". I like it, but am still too young to be a member. Maybe I should start a "Nifty, Shifty, Double Lifty, forty sixy Club". 52 has to be a good age for cardicians, a year for every card Speaking of old... I was looking for a reference in Royal Road to Card Magic last night and was reminded of the Back Slip Control. Reckon that could fool a few of the young pretenders if disguised as a gag glimpsing of the card above. What the heck Den, I'd still call it a Square Circle Production. Just 'cause someone makes one with a square box doesn't make it a different effect! The advantage to having EVERYTHING square, (which was suggested over here by Ray King) is that the whole thing can be constructed to fold flat. Also clear plastic as the window part helps to diffuse light and makes it deceptive at very close quarters. Paul Hallas |
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
Thought you might like this quote, saw it in Expert Card Technique.
" I know the application of superlatives to mediocre card effects is too commonly made nowadays by writers..." Could they see into the future? |
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MattSedlak Regular user 162 Posts |
Since I am still fairly young, buying magic books is an arduous task. There are so many books that it is hard to keep up, as new ones keep coming out. So, I developed a little plan to help. I buy about 2 books a week. One is a classic and one is a newer book. This keeps me about as balanced as I can. Although, depending on the books, sometimes it will take me a week just to get through one of them, so on occasion I have to wait a few weeks to get more books.
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Peter Loughran V.I.P. Ontario, Canada 2683 Posts |
Easy cowboy!
Matt, take your time, Magic is not something you rush through like you are cramming for an exam. If you rush through each book you will forget what you have learned. Relax, get the most out of each book and remember it is not a race, you will learn a lot thru experience probably far more than you will any book. However I think that buying a mix of older and newer books is a terrific idea, keep up the hard work and dedication, and good luck with your magic. P.
Brand New: - SNAKE BITE ILLUSION
www.masterofillusions.ca Follow me on Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/peter.loughran.9 Check out my new movie: www.plasterrockmovie.com www.globaluniversal.com Also visit: www.l2fireworks.com |
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
Peter is right Matt.Slowwww down.
Books are the best buy, but you are buying books before you have had time to fully digest and learn some of the previous book effects. You will end up with plenty of good tricks.... in the books on your shelves. You can't learn and hone down a few tricks in a week. That is s also a fair bit of change to be spending on magic each week (and this is someone who does a bit of dealing talking). Some of the old magazines coming out on CD are superb value and have tons of info on them. Then there are web sites like http://www.thelearnedpig.com where you can read a fair bit of older stuff for free! Let us know some of the books you have, old and new. Paul Hallas. |
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MattSedlak Regular user 162 Posts |
I understand what you guys are saying but I don't buy books to learn material to perform. For the most part the only material I wish to perform is my own material. Of course there are a few exceptions. I buy the books because I enjoy reading what other people have developed, and of course I use them as a reference. And then, I usually can get a few ideas for effects or methods from reading them. As it is now, the only effect that I perform on a constant basis that is not my own is Forgery, but then again there are not too many people who so that either.
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Fredrick Loyal user Seattle 248 Posts |
I find this thread to be fascinating and an area that has given much cause to pause....
It struck me recently that with videos and DVDs, a young magi can have knowledge of effects and sleights that us more senior magicians took years and decades to know. (Please note that I am differentiating between knowing and doing - "To know and not to do is not to know." I.E., watching videos and DVDs is just data not true wisdom which comes from doing.) When I have the opportunity to work with a young magi, I point them towards a small group of foundational texts - all of which are at least 40 years old. After s/he has developed those skills, its then time to move to a new set.
"Try to find the humanity in the magic and maybe you'll come up with something of your own. It's the humanity that gets you there, not techniques." Michael Moschen on Creativity
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MattSedlak Regular user 162 Posts |
As far as some of the books I have
Old: Expert Card Technique, Card Mastery, Card Magic of LePaul, Close Up Card Magic, Modern Coin Magic, Dai Vernon Book of Magic, Magic of Slydini, Stars of Magic, Conjurors Psychological Secrets, Marlo Revolutionary Card Technique series New: (while its not brand new stuff, i mean more modern stuff such as): Williamsons Wonders, Drawing Room Deceptions, Darwin Ortiz At The Card Table, Unexplainable Acts, Complete Works of Derek Dingle, Steel and Silver, Art of Astonishment series, Magic Menu books (both 1-5 and 6-10), Pasteboard Perpensions, Magical Record and Thoughts of Wesley James, and then of course there are all the smaller books and lecture notes. As a side note, if anybody has a softcover edition of Kaufman's CoinMagic for sale please let me know. |
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
re;
I don't buy books to learn material to perform. For the most part the only material I wish to perform is my own material. Most performers I would say DO buy books looking for material they can use. You have a good base to work from with what you've got as regards moves and basics. Have you got an act of your own material? If you just want to use your own stuff and be truly individual I would suggest you stop buying any more books for a while and work on your own stuff, you probably have a bigger library than a lot of magicians out there earning a living from magic already! To want to use just your own material is to be applauded, but I cannot think of anyone who started in magic that way. Usually they use the material of others, start to fully understand it, good and bad points and how to adapt things. As Frederick said, true wisdom comes from doing. The more you fully understand from working these things, the more your creative spark will work. Are you not just becoming a collector of books Matt? Of the books you mentioned for the most part your older books are the better ones! Even some of the newer books are often more technical than need be because the authors have had tunnel vision with regards to what's going on around then. One assumes the newer books contain improved methods and effects, but this is not always the case. We get variations of variations of variations. Sometimes we get right back to the original effect and the author is unaware of it. Because someone is a "name" author we assume the trick must be good. For the most part you will get MORE from the older books, a time when books were scarcer and full of routines that had been honed before audience. Look at Dingle's "We'll Twist if You Insist" p.54.in the book you have. A twist routine where the backs change colour. Published in 1982. It uses a Krenzel Mechanical Reversal or half pass, a pretty awkward 2 as four count variant, and you still have to displace cards after each count. A decade earler Schwartz released Backflip, a twist variant where the back of the cards change TWICE with little more than an Elmsley count. Did Dingle move this forward? No, he just exercised his knuckles. In these modern days of mass marketing of magic there is a lot more crap out there to feed the need of people who feel they need to purchase. People recording ideas to sell rather than passing on ideas that have been performed for years. The money you are spending on magic books regular would be better utilized going in your bank account. Maybe you could save up and go to a big magic convention, (at least there you could browse a number of books before buying) or even use the money on something OTHER than magic (car/holiday/woman/other interest.) You may not think I am trying to be helpful, but trust me, I am! Paul Hallas. |
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GothicBen Veteran user England 353 Posts |
Precisely, Paul! Hit nail on head, as usual!
I'm reminded of watching someone do one of the most diabolical variations on "Triumph" I've ever seen. It was so long winded and complicated I lost interest half way through. The performer proudly said "What do ya think?" and I replied "Great, but do you get a good reaction from it?". "Not really.." he replied. "Then why do it?" I asked. He muttered "Cos I can!" We've got to remember that just because a trick fools us, or we like it, doesn't mean we should perform it to laypeople (Thanks, Darwin Ortiz!). |
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MattSedlak Regular user 162 Posts |
Paul, first the buying of books is definatatly not hurting my bank account any, as I budget my money fairly well. I am going to Cape Cod Conclave which is most certainly not a HUGE convention but is decent sized. Lastly, it seems that you think I am a beginner. This is not true, while I am not the most experienced guy on the block I wouldn't consider myself a beginner by any means. Those were just a few books in my collection I named, just the ones that stood out to me when I was looking.
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Matt Graves Special user Huntsville, Alabama (USA) 504 Posts |
Urgggh . . . it bothers me because I'm not sure what a square circle is, either. I have an idea of what it is . . . but I don't want to post it here because that might be exposing something useful to a lot of people. I really do try to study the more classic stuff in magic when I can . . .but so many of the old ones are hard to get. I've tried so long to get Dai Vernon books . . . I think I may finally have found a place I can get them from. Already I've got :
The Amateur Magician's Handbook - Henry Hay Now You See It, Now You Don't - Bill Tarr The Magic Handbook - Peter Eldin Growing in the Art of Magic - Eugene Burger Modern Coin Magic - J.B. Bobo That is my collection over the years since 6th grade, and I'm a senior in high school now. Magic books are hard to find for me and they're kind of expensive, sometimes. The cheapest one I got was Modern Coin Magic. For some reason our bookstore sold it really , really cheap . . . I think it was less than ten bucks. Anybody got any recommendations from the "old school" for me? I've thought about buying the "Art of Astonishment", but it's still pretty fresh. I figure if you want to make your magic unique, you need to backtrack to some old stuff people may have forgotten about. |
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Dave Le Fevre Inner circle UK 1666 Posts |
Further to Fredrick's comments about videos and DVDs, I'd always preferred books to videos for learning conjuring, for a variety of reasons. But I've changed that attitude a lot over the last year.
I didn't learn from videos initially 'cos VCRs hadn't been invented when I started dabbling in conjuring. No, don't laugh, that's not a joke. Well, ok, you're gonna laugh, so do it anyway. So I learned from books. I bought Expert Card Technique, and worked my way through it. And many sleights I gave up on 'cos I couldn't do them. And some I thought I did well. And many I thought, after I'd practised them for ages, couldn't really deceive anybody. Not only would my rendition of them fool nobody, but they were "obviously" not really deceptive, whoever performed them. Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Well, I may perhaps have been right on the first one – I may be intrinsically poor at card sleights. All the evidence certainly points that way. Most of the sleights that I thought I performed well, I realised suddenly many years ago that I was absolutely cr*p at them. And I really was cr*p at them. And it was only within the last ten years, when watching Gary Kurtz on an International Magic video explaining which sleights he was using, that I realised that the "unworkable" sleights really did work. Sleights that I'd written off as unworkable really worked. The upshot of all these ramblings is that I'd have been a far better conjuror had I learned from videos. Books too, certainly, but for many sleights, videos are essential for some people. And when learning a "dynamic" sleight, such as David Williamson's Striking Vanish, well, if I'd read that in a book, I'd have tried it, thought "huh, that's rubbish", and discarded it. But I've seen it performed in real life, I've now got a video that demonstrates it and explains it, and I know that it's worth persisting with. And I'm getting there. And why I'm saying all this is 'cos all "the old stuff" is books, not videos or DVDs. So while I am a fan of many of the older texts, if you stick solely to them you could be losing out on learning many sleights. As I did. Dave
The Ozzy Osbourne of the 34x27
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Serling,
The books you mention make up a terrific base of magic. If you know, and can perform, everything in them you could perform anywhere in the world (of course, you'd probably be about 395 years old!) Don't worry about not having everything right away; after 50 years in the business, I am JUST NOW going through Tarbell! As for the square circle, if you know it's a production device and you have an idea of how it works, then you probably are on the right track. (It's in most older magic books). cheers, Peter Marucci showtimecol@aol.com |
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