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jackturk
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Jim Snack is truly a gentleman and a scholar and I've learned a tremendous amount from him over the past few years.

One point earlier I HAVE to take issue with:

[What gets old for me is when these marketers throw out bits and pieces and then say go here "website link" and buy my product to learn more. I personally don't think you can put a price tag on knowledge. If someone is passionate to learn, then a mentor will sweep them off their feet and teach them the ropes "free" ]

Say what?

Of course we put a price tag on knowledge and experience.

If you attended college, you paid a price tag called tuition for the benefit of acquiring knowledge from your professor or even teaching assistant.

If you bought a book, you're paying for the knowledge of the author and his/her ability to convey that information in a way that's persuasive, clear, and useful.

If you watch PBS, you're paying for it through the donations you make, others make, or we all make through federal beneficence.

I offer a program on internet marketing that I sell for around $300. It includes detailed information on setting up your website, setting up your adwords strategy, and seo tactics.

It also includes bonuses of pre-written sales copy, PPC keywords, a detailed campaign strategy, and a pre-built website that you can take and modify in your business.

It took me years to learn this stuff and many hours/days/weeks to put it together. What makes it different from the stuff you can find on the net and in a library is that is specifically designed for magicians and our market.

If you want to hire a professional copywriter (like me) to create solid sales copy that you could use, that would run you anywhere from $500 to $2000. If you want to hire a developer to build you a working website that incorporates this copy, tack on another $300 to $1000 or more.

If you want to hire someone to analyze our market and identify the right keywords for your Google Ad campaign, that will run you $50 to $100 /hour.

And I put this all together for $300.

Even so, given all this work on my part, I should give it away because someone comes and says, "help!?"

Ditto for the amazing work that Jim Snack did in his program. And Dean's stuff. And Eric Paul's stuff.

We should all just "give" it away because it's just "knowledge"?

They call it "Intellectual Property" for a reason. It has value.

--Jack Turk
"59 Ways To Recession Proof Your Entertainment Business -- FREE!"
http://www.GetLeadsLikeCrazy.com

"How To Make $25,000 a Year Doing Birthday Parties Part-Time"
http://www.magicmarketingcenter.com/birthdayPT
Donald Dunphy
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I also disagree with Charles that mentors and advice should be free for all.

If some pros want to share samples, that their choice.

Generally speaking, when you pay some sort of price for the prize, there is more respect, perceived value, a greater motivation to take action, etc.

- Donald

P.S. Your budget for learning should not be the same money that you have set aside for marketing. Those are different.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
trickychaz
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Quote:
On 2010-01-29 15:29, jackturk wrote:
Jim Snack is truly a gentleman and a scholar and I've learned a
tremendous amount from him over the past few years.

One point earlier I HAVE to take issue with:

[What gets old for me is when these marketers throw out bits and
pieces and then say go here "website link" and buy my product to
learn more. I personally don't think you can put a price tag on
knowledge. If someone is passionate to learn, then a mentor will
sweep them off their feet and teach them the ropes "free" ]

Say what?

Of course we put a price tag on knowledge and experience.

If you attended college, you paid a price tag called tuition
for the benefit of acquiring knowledge from your professor
or even teaching assistant.

If you bought a book, you're paying for the knowledge of the
author and his/her ability to convey that information in a way
that's persuasive, clear, and useful.

If you watch PBS, you're paying for it through the donations
you make, others make, or we all make through federal beneficence.

I offer a program on internet marketing that I sell for around $300.
It includes detailed information on setting up your website, setting
up your adwords strategy, and seo tactics.

It also includes bonuses of pre-written sales copy, PPC keywords,
a detailed campaign strategy, and a pre-built website that you
can take and modify in your business.

It took me years to learn this stuff and many hours/days/weeks to
put it together. What makes it different from the stuff you
can find on the net and in a library is that is specifically
designed for magicians and our market.

If you want to hire a professional copywriter (like me) to create
solid sales copy that you could use, that would run you anywhere
from $500 to $2000. If you want to hire a developer to build you a
working website that incorporates this copy, tack on another $300
to $1000 or more.

If you want to hire someone to analyze our market and identify
the right keywords for your Google Ad campaign, that will run you
$50 to $100 /hour.

And I put this all together for $300.

Even so, given all this work on my part, I should give it away
because someone comes and says, "help!?"

Ditto for the amazing work that Jim Snack did in his program. And
Dean's stuff. And Eric Paul's stuff.

We should all just "give" it away because it's just "knowledge"?

They call it "Intellectual Property" for a reason. It has value.

--Jack Turk

You are talking to a guy that paid Brad Ross 300.00/month to help my business, and never got anything out of it! @ 300$/month he came to the conclusion that I am uncoachable, lack financial investment, hot under the collar, and major in minor things.

That was no the case at all! I have been very successful over the past 4 months. He didn't do a very good job at helping me..he understood my situation, but didn't adapt to it. That 300$/month was well worth the investment in advertising, eric's course, david farr's system, but I am sorry...wasn't good for Brad Ross.

It's nothing personal against the other marketers, but I was left with a bad taste in my mouth. I am sure that your programs are valuable and can attest to the fact that Brad Ross was dead wrong.

I read Eric's course and DJ Ehlerts course, and have exceeded my goals for the past 3 months.

Jack and Jim Snack....I more than trust your products and services offered, and have them on my purchase list for the near future. I am subscribed to your email list and love it!

Posted: Jan 29, 2010 4:16pm
Ahh...so we are paying for the experience that you have already lived? That makes sense, but still $197.00 $297.00 for a book and audio CD? It's not that I don't think that it's valuable, but I just can't afford that much for the knowledge.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that...Yes it's valuable...Yes it's worth every penny, but why the "hard sell approach and hitting on our fears?" Why not just tell us whats in it and a price?
Bill Hilly
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Chaz,

In other threads, you've been talking about your experiences with SEO. I really DO APPRECIATE your sharing that information. Sincerely.

I use my website as an extension of my other marketing materials and getting a high ranking is not a top priority for me - FOR ME - My prospects are sent there through my mailings and such. My target is very narrow and I've found direct mail to be the most effective way to reach the majority of them.

But it's fun to type in what I think would be the main keywords to what I offer and see that I'm at the top of Google. So, thank you again for sharing what you're learning in that.

As to paying people to teach what they know... Since I teach private music lessons 2 days a week, I side with the "pay the teacher" camp. Heck, even Aristotle, Socrates, Leonardo, and Mozart got paid to teach.

But I do feel the same way as you about the hard sell and play-on-fears approach. Of course it works but I generally recoil when it's played on me.

I wrote above about investigating and all that, and I have a list of "beware keywords". Or rather they are "be wary" keywords. There are certain phrases that are dead giveaways that what the person is selling could be largely a copy of someone else. And I almost never by anything with a price that ends with a 7. I have before and I have a very strong reason (much like the keyword thing) for not doing it again.

I will say though that I believe Jim's price does, or used to, end with a 7 and I've already added my unwavering endorsement on his stuff. Coincidentally, a long time ago he quoted the marketer I think is the lowest of the low. PROVING THAT THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THE GREAT RULES OF THE BEANO. I only add that tidbit because it was a long time ago, and any error it may convene would be on me, not Jim.

Just the opinions of a guy who's supposed to be working on his financials today,
Beano
lou serrano
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Jim Snack's post is a clear indication of why he is highly respected among other professionals. You touched on an area that is obviously the first place to start, and you did it with such class.

Thank you for sharing.

Lou Serrano
Bill Hilly
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Wanna laugh?

Google this and include the quotation marks:

"the most educational programs available without compromising entertainment value"

Read their sites and see that these people are ALL claiming, or at least strongly insinuating to have created a program they BOUGHT from the original creator of the program.

Now try this one:

"kids do not want to sit and listen to a boring lecture"
They all bought, and are using the same letter. Word for word. Exept one guy who added and/or subtrated a word here and there. At least HE's learning to rewrite.

A few years ago, a school principal who's a friend of mine gave me 4 letters he was throwing away. They were word-for-word the same. I mean the only change was the guys' names and phone numbers.

Last fall a librarian showed me 3 books that magicians donated to the library as part of their marketing. You guessed it, they were the SAME BOOK - except each one had his name on as the author! None of them got hired and she has the books in a box in her office, not to release them.

So, why do we need BETTER marketing programs? Why do we need REAL people to help us? Why are we looked at as the bottom of the scale, with fees to match?

Because of this kind of stuff.

Granted those websites are from different areas. And granted not all of us are doing that, or getting low fees. I'm the highest in my area by a good amount (and yes, I lose jobs because of it) but I have to constantly fight the current and keep changing my copy, tactics, strategies, etc.

But I'm actually okay with that. In fact there's two guys who often check out y website and copy lots of it. One is close enough to my area and one is 1200 or so miles away. Go ahead, I say. They still don't show up on Google for the keywords I check and they make me keep moving forward. My website URL is only given out on my direct mail pieces and cards anyway because I have a very narrow target.

I'll last, they won't if they don't learn. Lots of people play cover songs in bands. Lots of people can make copies of famous paintings. Lots of people are original, have high standards, and live with integrity. The trick is to be that last group. If I slip, feel free to let me know. You'll help be a better person. (I mean WHEN I slip).

Thanks for reading,
Beano
seadog93
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Quote:
On 2010-01-29 15:29, jackturk wrote:
Jim Snack is truly a gentleman and a scholar and I've learned a
tremendous amount from him over the past few years.

One point earlier I HAVE to take issue with:

[What gets old for me is when these marketers throw out bits and
pieces and then say go here "website link" and buy my product to
learn more. I personally don't think you can put a price tag on
knowledge. If someone is passionate to learn, then a mentor will
sweep them off their feet and teach them the ropes "free" ]

Say what?

Of course we put a price tag on knowledge and experience.

If you attended college, you paid a price tag called tuition
for the benefit of acquiring knowledge from your professor
or even teaching assistant.

If you bought a book, you're paying for the knowledge of the
author and his/her ability to convey that information in a way
that's persuasive, clear, and useful.

If you watch PBS, you're paying for it through the donations
you make, others make, or we all make through federal beneficence.

I offer a program on internet marketing that I sell for around $300.
It includes detailed information on setting up your website, setting
up your adwords strategy, and seo tactics.

It also includes bonuses of pre-written sales copy, PPC keywords,
a detailed campaign strategy, and a pre-built website that you
can take and modify in your business.

It took me years to learn this stuff and many hours/days/weeks to
put it together. What makes it different from the stuff you
can find on the net and in a library is that is specifically
designed for magicians and our market.

If you want to hire a professional copywriter (like me) to create
solid sales copy that you could use, that would run you anywhere
from $500 to $2000. If you want to hire a developer to build you a
working website that incorporates this copy, tack on another $300
to $1000 or more.

If you want to hire someone to analyze our market and identify
the right keywords for your Google Ad campaign, that will run you
$50 to $100 /hour.

And I put this all together for $300.

Even so, given all this work on my part, I should give it away
because someone comes and says, "help!?"

Ditto for the amazing work that Jim Snack did in his program. And
Dean's stuff. And Eric Paul's stuff.

We should all just "give" it away because it's just "knowledge"?

They call it "Intellectual Property" for a reason. It has value.

--Jack Turk


I couldn't agree more. And having a bad experience with one person is just that, a bad experience with one person; it doesn't invalidate anyone else material or that material's value.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
Jim Snack
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Beano,

I was thinking about answering your specific question about the process of getting a sponsor in a PM, but then thought that others may be interested. I apologize if my posting here takes this excellent discussion down a side path in the maze.

First, let me preface my answer by saying that I have only gotten a sponsor once in my career. I do have friends who have gotten several sponsors and I've discussed the process with them. And I've attended some workshops on the topic at National Speakers Association Convention, and I've heard how others have done it. I'd love the come up with a project that could interest a sponsor, and if I ever do, you can bet I'll chase one down.

I did a lot of grant writing early in my career, and had some modest success doing so, bringing in between $1000 - $6000 in grant money for various projects back in the 1980's. The process for getting both grants and corporate sponsors share some similarities. You have to write a proposal articulating a clear vision for project that meets certain objectives for the grant giver/sponsor. You have to demonstrate that you have a workable plan for successfully completing the project, and you have to convince the committee that you are capable of completing the project and meeting the objectives.

They differ in several ways. First, the objective for a grant is usually for some sort of public good or benefit. The objective for a sponsor is a marketing objective - getting media exposure, building brand awareness in a mew market, etc. The audience for the application differs. A grant application may read by a committee of volunteers, a government agency staff, a foundation staff, or a other committee. The reader of a sponsorship proposal is likely to be a Vice President of Marketing for a business and/or a business owner. Finally, the proposal for a grant is typically very long, with detailed budgets, support documentation and support letters. A proposal for a corporate sponsor is going to be much shorter, sometimes only one page for the actual proposed project description and a few support pages.

What is important for getting either a grant or a sponsor is to have a great idea and demonstrate that you are the person who can "deliver the goods."

What a minute....isn't that what marketing is all about also?

Jim

PS: By the way, that that wasn't a planned "extended sale," I just didn't want to disappoint anyone. Because of the positive response to that Blowout disc, I made a lot of extra ones to bring to the Kapital Kidvention, where I spoke yesterday morning. The convention was great, but unfortunately I had to leave early. In fact I just got home a little while ago. Guess what? I made way too many, so I'll probably offer them again shortly. It wasn't planned. I would have rather sold them in one shot at the convention, than have to carry them home!! Now I just want to move them.
Jim Snack

"Helping Magicians Succeed with Downloadable Resources"
www.success-in-magic.com
Bill Hilly
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Jim,

Thanks for that EXCELLENT answer. I was re-reading that grant report and the I was thinking concerning using it as a model for sponsor proposals was about half correct. You filled in a lot for me there.

I want to apologize for sounding as if I thought you may have been using the pre-planned extended sale. I was trying to say that it is a tactic that some use. I was VERY GLAD you did make extra because I really got a lot from it. The audio from the School DVD panel discussion was the tops for me. That DVD set is one of the 3 best resources a school performer could have - and SHOULD have.

I think I have all but maybe 3 of your products now. And it's only because those don't apply to what I'm doing right now.

I also want to point out to everyone. That Jim's posts in this thread are another example of a true giving professional. And those that can see behind and beyond the actual posts, can see a good business plan: How Jim responds, what he responds (and doesn't respond) to, and what he says.

Your teaching more than what you say, Jim.

Not to ignore the contributions of others who also sell products and give freely here. We owe ALL of you: Jack, Dean, James, Kyle, and others I'm not remembering to name right now, our thanks.

I've also been soaking in good stuff from Paddy, Mike Clay, Chaz, Ed Mills, Donald, Dennis, and again a bunch more.

I thank you all.
Beano
Jim Snack
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Thanks Beano, for all your positive comments. No apology was necessary as I didn't take any offense.

The Magic Success Seminar that I was part of a few years ago was an intensive seminar on working school shows with myself, Steve Hart, BJ Hickman and Steve Taylor. Unfortunately, the DVD set is not longer available. Because the information was so good, I took the audio portion of my sessions, the panel discussion, and added some additional information from my Success in Magic course to create the three CD audio set called "Everything Your Always Wanted to Know About School Programs...but Were Afraid to Ask."

I just finished unpacking from my trip to the Kapital Kidvention, the first annual conference for children's entertainers in Springfield, VA and I must congratulate Louis Meyer for putting on a great convention. The general session presenters were all top notch. Unfortunately, I didn't get to any breakout sessions. I particularly liked the opening session entitled How to Make the Audience Love You (or something like that) by former Ringling Clown, Leon McBryde. Wow, what seasoned pro! It was a lesson in showmanship. Also, the session by Arthur Stead was an amazing demonstration on how to enhance your show with music. I understand that Louis is going to make the DVD set of nearly all the sessions at that convention available shortly. Folks can go to http://www.kapitalkidvention.com for details.

And yes, I have ten of those School Show & Motivational Magic Blowout discs left over that I will offer to my list on Monday. If interested, Café members, however, can get one early at http://www.success-in-magic.com/blowout.htm .

Now, to get this discussion back on track, I usually find something of value in every marketing or business book, CD or program that I invest in. Yes, some may be over-priced for the value delivered, and I may not use an idea or strategy right away, but I can usually find one jewel of an idea that I tuck away in my mind. Even if I don't ever use the idea myself, I often will recommend it to a friend or customer who needs help marketing a new program.

And your comments about clone marketing campaigns vs. original sales copy were right on target. We all learn from others, but the standout performers always adapt an idea make it their own. And that's true whether we are talking about their act or their marketing materials. The clones will always be cheap imitations of the real thing.

Jim
Jim Snack

"Helping Magicians Succeed with Downloadable Resources"
www.success-in-magic.com
magic4u02
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Beano:

Thank you my friend for the kind words. I always believe that you need to give back to magic what it has given to you. I love writing and sharing ideas and if I can help someone who wants to help themselves, then I will always make time to do so.

We do indeed learn from others and I am always listening to whatever anyone says and absorbing what I can take from it. I also agree with jim in that I never stop learning and I can always gain something from anything I read.

Right now I am reading "SEO for Dummies - 10 books in 1". It is actually VERY good and filled with TONS of great information and tidbits that I am going to utilize and test out. I have just started the book and have already found things that is more then worth the price I paid for it.

Kyle
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Bill Hilly
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Kyle,

You are most welcome. And thank you for bringing up that book. I saw it mentioned somewhere else around the Café, and when I went to look for it I saw that there are 2 books of the same title. Except that one of them added the "10 Books in 1".

I meant to ask here which was recommended but I forgot about it. I ordered it tonight.

Thanks,
Beano

Posted: Jan 30, 2010 10:44pm
Jim,

Very well said about the clones. Learning from, modeling after, and aspiring to be like, successful people are how many get started. But sooner or later we gotta cut the cord.

Thanks for the heads up on the Kapital Kidvention DVDs. I'll be watching for them.

Beano
Dannydoyle
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I am interested in the idea that people should not be paid to teach the knowlege they have. Why is that again?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Bill Hilly
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Beats me Danny.

I teach music 2 days week. I get paid and build a little fan base at the same time.

Money is just a way of trading something for something else. With money, we don't have carry around a bunch stuff to trade. Smile

Beano
Dannydoyle
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Yea it is confusing to me. I mean yea there is a lot of information out there and if you don't like it then don't buy more of it. The idea that it should be free seems a bit of an odd concept to me is all.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
trickychaz
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Quote:
On 2010-01-31 00:11, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea it is confusing to me. I mean yea there is a lot of information out there and if you don't like it then don't buy more of it. The idea that it should be free seems a bit of an odd concept to me is all.


You're right! It is an odd concept, and to be honest..I don't even know why I said it! Lets move on to a different subject shall we?
Bill Hilly
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I forgot who said it.

You're right Chaz, let's drop it.

For what it's worth, you're okay in my book.

Beano
Jim Snack
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II wish I could sell my experience for what it cost me. I'd be a rich man.

Jim

PS: For now, I'm happy to settle for a fee that ends in 7.
Jim Snack

"Helping Magicians Succeed with Downloadable Resources"
www.success-in-magic.com
trickychaz
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Quote:
On 2010-01-31 06:30, Jim Snack wrote:
II wish I could sell my experience for what it cost me. I'd be a rich man.

Jim

PS: For now, I'm happy to settle for a fee that ends in 7.


Why is it that prices's end in 7?
magicFreak2
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As soon as I saw the big red text in a box, I knew it was a no-go. Anything that looks even remotely like that, with huge, bold and italic text is NOT what you're looking for.
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