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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » Michael Close Devious DVD set (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Joe Mauro
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I just watched the clip I was talking about and I have not changed my perception. When Michael Close asks here "What are you, a child? " the young lady looks embarrassed.

The credits list a "Tom Cutts", so it's not surprising he has come here to spin the events and tell everyone I'm wrong. He has no apparent knowledge that people who have been abused physically or mentally, actually offer praise of the people that harmed them, especially if it's in the environment that it happened in. So Tom Cutts, an L & L employee, talking with her and reporting how much fun she had is also not surprising.

I'll pass on the biased views Tom Cutts has of these shoots and of telling me what I did and did not see, even after multiple viewings.
~Joe
Tom Cutts
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I didn't expect you, Joe Mauro, to change your inaccurate perceptions of the DVD. It doesn't fit your profile, Joe Mauro. Nor is it a surprise you are overly sensitive, Joe Mauro, as to mentally and physically abused people to the point it clouds your judgement, Joe Mauro.

More of the spin from those who weren't there, that those who were don't know "the truth". Again, no surprise from you, Joe Mauro.

Further more, that you think I am an employee of L&L only serves to highlight your utter lack of understanding what goes on at these shoots, Joe Mauro.
Joe Mauro
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Tom Cutts, you work the camera for them, participate, come to the Café with talking points, etc. You can be paid in ways other than cash or check. Do you get product from them? If so, I'd say you're being 'paid' for services.
~Joe
Tom Cutts
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Like I said, you have no idea what happens there. No surprise your perceptions are inaccurate, again, Joe Mauro. Reality may not be what you see in the credits. Your "powers of perception" have let you down yet again, Joe Mauro.
Joe Mauro
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LOL. Tom Cutts, you should go work for the White House.

Fortunately for us, someone ( trutheller ) that is familiar with how things work has been able to refute your "unbiased" talking points.

Tom Cutts, has L & L ever given you product? DVDS, anything like that?
~Joe
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Smile Brad has refuted nothing, Joe Mauro. He has admitted that his "inside information" is over ten years old. Things might have changed since then don't, you think, Joe Mauro? What Brad has exhibited "familliarity" with is ancient history which has not been substantiated at that.

You see, it has nothing to do with old history, or L&L policies and practices. All it has to do with, Joe Mauro, is that you are inaccurate in your characterizations of Mike Close's performance on his new DVDs.
Joe Mauro
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Tom Cutts, has L & L ever given you product? DVDS, anything like that? You don't seem to want to answer that question. I'll say they have, because you're dodging the question.

Please tell your employers at L & L Publishing to include disclaimers that the viewer is not to have any perceptions on what they are viewing, because it will be wrong as they are not at the video shoots.

That means, Tom Cutts, if they feel the magic and performances are wonderful, they are wrong because they weren't at the video shoot. They have no clue as to what the audience is feeling.

Isn't that correct, based on you telling me I'm wrong on my perceptions of what I'm watching? Or, Tom Cutts, do you just deny people their perceptions if it doesn't fit what you and your employers at L & Publishing desire?
~Joe
Futureal
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It seems people have chosen to ignore my previous suggestion on the last page.

Have fun guys.
Domino Magic
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I know for a fact that Tom Cutts isn't an L&L employee. What Joe Mauro doesn't realize is that L&L has a "comp list" as do other publishers, creators and wholesalers. That doesn't make them employees. If getting free product is your criteria for being an employee, then I guess Steve Brooks is one also.

Joe, it's obvious you have a problem with L&L. I have an easy solution for you. If you implement this solution, you will have more time to practice, rehearse, perform and interact with your fellow magicians in a more productive manner. The simple answer is this - stop buying L&L products. You're obviously not a satisfied customer. I can't think of one business that has a 100% satisfaction rate.

You see Joe, it would be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to satisfy your criteria for an unbiased opinion. L&L is a very generous company and often times visiting magicians, guys who are just there to watch a shoot are offered free things such as food and DVDs, which fall under the definition of compensation according to you.

So stop buying L&L DVDs, put your Close set up for sale so you can at least recover some of your money and move on with your life. You'll be a better person for it.
truthteller
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Quote:
On 2010-04-09 17:40, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
What happened at the shoot is irrelevant. What is perceived to have happened is the only thing that matters.
The truth doesn't matter? Now that is ironic. As to the perception, there seems to be a differing of opinion from not only those who were actually there, but also some who have posted here with only viewing the DVDs to judge from.

In particular, I'll restate, the "patting its ok" is obviously from the facial expressions (smiles) and reactions (laughter) on the DVD a freindly jesting. Anyone who finds it otherwise is not very astute at judging such elements. That moment is inaccurately characterized as a comforting gesture when it is clearly not one. It is a gesture made in jest. Misinterpreting that is not a matter of opinion. It is an inacurracy of observation.
Quote:
If it looks to him like the lady was uncomfortable, then it looks to him like the lady was uncomfortable.
I agree, but that isn't what he wrote and more importantly it doesn't mean she was uncomfortable. If he said "Watching the performance made me uncomfortable." that could be accurate. If he said "I'd be uncomfortable if someone treated me that way." that could be accurate. The statements he made about Becca's state are simply inaccurate.

Quote:
You accuse him of being wrong because he was not there. Perhaps you cannot see what he does now because you were!
No, I informed him of being wrong because he is wrong. If he'd been there and said the same thing it would not change the truth. Becca was not embarassed. It is also an inaccurate assesment of the footage. That it is an opinion does not give it trump over the truth. Most people will clearly see the jest made in the "patting" moment. Some, obviously, will not.


Quote:
Where is this advice written?
Can we assume that you have never read such advice?

Quote:
I think I'll listen to Tamariz, not Tom Cutts - thanks, though.
Ignoring your attempt at sarcasm, I'll simply point out that I did not say it was my advice. That characterization of the statement is inaccurate.

When it comes to producing an instructional performance video, certain trade offs need to be made. Certainly any audience which is aware there are cameras is going to react differently. Some people, usually those experienced being around cameras, can turn the camera off in their head and just be in the moment, but they are rare to find. The options here are:

A. No audience for the performance
B. Using amazingly stealthy techniques to film the performance, ask for waivers after the fact, and hope the person sitting in the front row decides they don't want to be on camera and the whole shoot is useless.
C. Use a studio setting to capture as best as possible the actions of the performer doing just that, performing for people who know they are on camera.

And the outcomes are:
A. No performance interaction to learn from.
B. Much higher production costs will be passsed on to the consumer
C. Reactions are not "real world" and are "misleading" a concern to some who are inexperienced, but most people will enjoy the energy in the performances and learn from the points which the performer makes about the interaction with the audience.

L&L and the various artists who chose them to document their work make decisions about how they want to shoot their performances. These decisions are made to best capture the performance from many angles so that magicians can learn from the footage. You learn very little about performing from a guy standing in front of a camera doing tricks for himself. You also lose some learning when a performer has to explain that the participant for a certain trick was a real detriment because they did not react to anything and tried to mess with the magician.

While such a "difficult situation" DVD might make an interesting learning tool, I predict it won't be a huge success monetarily. History has shown me that viewers don't purchase such DVDs. They want to see enjoyable, fun performances, and learn how the tricks are done.

L&L has developed a system which is entertaining to watch and to learn from, and that has made them the leading publisher of magic DVDs. They have a system which works for them, and it works well. That isn't to say there isn't room for adaptation to a change in the market, which they have also done quite successfully.

Its a big world out there. Anyone who has an idea how to better shoot videos is welcome to buy or rent the cameras, lighting, editing software and have at it. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.


Seems tom, or someone close to L and L was upset with my response, so allow me to phrase it another way

This post can be summerized as follows;

1. L and L is the bestest

2. I refuse to acknowledge that L and L audiences have a community wide perception of over reacting and delivering un-genuine responses. If I keep refusing to acknowledge what everyone on the planet is saying, maybe they will forget about it.

3) L and L is the bestest.

Tom, my information is less than ten years old and comes from sources much closer than you can ever hope to be, in spite of your lapdog like devotion to defending the talking points. If you want to discuss who and what, come up to me any time at a convention. But I assure you, I know how the audience came to be and how their behaviors have been reinforced over the years - and no, not with applause signs.

Here's what it boils down to: every magician in the world (except perhaps fernando keops) believes the l and l audiences over react. My friends who have worked that room have told me stories of non moments being heralded as miracles.

It's ok. We understand.

We're just tired of it and are tired of a glorified extra (that's what you are then, if you aren't being paid or doing real work, right) telling us that it doesn't look to us like the l and l audience is over reacting.

Who are you to tell us what we are seeing. (Obviously someone who knows nothing of perception and how it works. Sad for a 'magician', no?)

The audience over reacts is based only on the scale of how each of us has seen similar material play in other settings by similar or the same artists.

I've hired some of these guys to work private evebts. I KNOW how well their material plays and I know how it plays differently than in that studio for those people.

I've even seen fernando cheops, and petrick and mia work live - do I have to mention, it aint the same?

So stop telling us that what we know about how magic plays in the real world is wrong. It is presumptuious and rude. Besides, how would you know? Seems to me the onlymagic experience you have is being an extra on the L andL set and posting on here.

Every time you tell us the reactions are normal, you are only creating animosity toward louis and his product. If I told you the sky were red and kept saying that, you would get upset or think me crazy.

Well, you've seen how upset you've made people, and if you keep telling us L and L audiences are reacting normally, then we can only conclude you OR THEY are insane

The L and L audience was culled from highly reactive volunteers. Over time this role took hold (stanford prison experiment, anyone?) And escalted behaviors into a nonsensical realm. Now it seems Louis is trying to normalize things, which is good. But ultimately, the damage is done.

No one will ever believe an l and l audience reaction - even for great performers.

Tom, you can stick your fingers in your ears and go na,na, na OR you can acknowledge what everyone outside of tahoe knows to be true.

The perception is real and you are only reinforcing it with your lapdog defense.

Open you eyes, tom.
Tom Cutts
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Since perception seems to be the "issue de jour", I will simply point out the following lacks of accurate perception:

Quote:
On 2010-04-10 10:17, truthteller wrote:
1. L and L is the bestest
I never said they were "the bestest". Here is what I did say:
Quote:
L&L has developed a system which is entertaining to watch and to learn from, and that has made them the leading publisher of magic DVDs.
Sometimes being the most successful, or the leader, doesn't mean you are the "bestest". Inaccurate perception, Brad.

Quote:
2. I refuse to acknowledge that L and L audiences have a community wide perception of over reacting and delivering un-genuine responses.
I never said that. Your inaccurate perception of my defending the validity of the reactions which I know to be genuine to that person has clouded your judgement. Inaccurate perception, Brad.


Quote:
Well, you've seen how upset you've made people...
Yet another inaccurate perception, Brad. These upset people, I count two including you, were already upset before I entered this thread.

Speaking of which:
Quote:
Please tell your employers at L & L Publishing
An inaccurate characterization based on an inaccurate perception, by Joe Mauro, and made multiple times.

I get the feeling that Brad Henderson and Joe Mauro think their perceptions are reality. People are entitled to their perceptions, when they delude themselves into thinking those perceptions are reality simply becasue they had them, it should come as no surprise to the rest of the world that sooner or later someone will come along and point out the inaccuracy of some those perceptions.

So here you go. There are real people out there who react just like John reacts. John's reactions are genuine to him. John acts that way all the time. It is genuine to him. Any professional who has not encountered such a spectator in their audience, simply hasn't worked very much. Those who perceive that John's reactions are fake simply have never encountered a spectator like him. Those who think John's reactions are fake, are simply not believing in reality.

Years ago I worked a private birthday party in the Marin Hills. My very first group I performed for included one guy who was dead set on busting my chops and being the focus of attention. He managed to do neither but we had a great give and take. After the set I thanked the group and was off to find another group to work for. Over my shoulder I see the trouble making guy headed my way. He came up to me, apologized for his actions, and then took me over and gave me great introduction to a group of people. For the rest of the party this guy would show up at the end of my set and lead me to another group and give me another great introduction. Sometimes what you perceive (trouble maker) is not the reality. He was a huge asset to both me and the guests at that party. Who'd have guessed from the first five minutes perception.
truthteller
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Blah blah blah - I refuse to acknowledge that everyone in the magic world thinks the l and l audience over reacts blah blah blah.

We get it tom, you refuse to or cannot see the point. Doing so upsets others, on this thread, on others, in pms, emails, phone calls and conversations.

It's an issue and people are tired of it. Scores of people have thanked me for commenting on it in my reviews, its a standard joke topic among magicians at conventions - every one gets it but you.

No one believes the l and l audience reacts normally. No on believes criss angel isn't using camera tricks. It doesn't matter what the truth is. We don't believe him and his flunkies when they try to tell us otherwise, and we don't believe you. Louis has created a situation where no one (except you and dennis) believes the audience reactions. Its done. Its there. Denying it won't change it.
I have no doubt that's how john reacts. He is an over reactor. And having one of them is ok - a room of them?
And if he thinks fernando is that good, then he's not only an over reactor, he has no ability of discernment.


Either acknowledge the perception or go away. Denying it only will lead to more people feeling more strongly.

Everyone gets it tom

But you.
Domino Magic
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Geez Brad, I don't know what kind of falling out you had with L&L, but you sure are one bitter guy.
lebowski
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L&L artists are great, but if they regularly got the inflated reactions evident on their DVDs they would have taken the world by storm and be known outside magic circles. When you get reactions like Elvis or the Beatles you enevitably become a phenomenon with the public at large.
NicholasD
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Quote:
On 2010-04-10 15:21, Domino Magic wrote:
Geez Brad, I don't know what kind of falling out you had with L&L, but you sure are one bitter guy.


I've been reading these posts day after day, pretty much thinking the same thing. For my part, I've performed, purchased tapes and DVD's and sessioned with some of the best close up magicians in the world since 1973.( I only mention this to indicate that I'm not a novice.) I thoroughly enjoyed this DVD set, and I repeat what I said earlier: I did not in the least get the impression that any audience member felt that they were being abused or made to feel uncomfortable. The same for the audience in general.

Surely an experienced magician may already be familiar with many or even all of the routines on the set. I was, but I still came away with valuable information that I either didn't know or was reminded of.
truthteller
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I have no problem with L and L. (Though I think their choices cater to those who want to be entertained at the expense of those who want to learn.) I have a problem with people like Tom denying (in defense of L and L) that the L and L audience is over reactive and does not deliver typical, real world reactions. No one is claiming they arepaid to over react, no on is claiming they are coached - no one is arguing the meaning of words that like employer that serve to only distract from the issue. We are talking about nuts and bolts, end of the road, what we see done followed by what we see in reaction, pixels on the screen.

They are over reacting. I don't care why. I don't care how.

But please, don't insult me by telling me they are not.

That's the problem.
Domino Magic
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Quote:
On 2010-04-10 18:09, truthteller wrote:
I have a problem with people like Tom denying (in defense of L and L) that the L and L audience is over reactive and does not deliver typical, real world reactions.

They are over reacting. I don't care why. I don't care how.


Is your life so meaningless that this is what you waste your time over? You can't change it, so what are you arguing about it for?

Who cares? By now everyone knows what an L&L DVD is all about. If it bothers you so much, then don't watch them. It's a simple solution. So what if the reactions aren't "real world". I think any performer worth his weight in playing cards can look past these minor issues on magic DVDs, see an effect for what it's worth and make an educated decision if it's something that will fit in his repertoire.

Who cares what Micheal Close says to a spectator or how "John" reacts to a card revelation. That has no affect on your performances. I mean if that is what you're focused on, then turn off the DVD and crack open some books because your really missing the point.
NicholasD
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Well said, Domino.
truthteller
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And yet it's important enough for you to reply.

I find tom's behavior and position untenable. Bullying someone for disagreeing with the party line is uncalled for. Refusing to acknowledge an industry wide perception is either childish, boorish or idiot - choosing to throw up smoke screens with pendantic arguements meant to distract is ridiculous. I felt it worthy of saying something.

On the larger scales, I do think the tools used to educate magicians will impact our art in ways that will affect each of us.

That's what these are supposed to be.
Joe Mauro
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Interesting, people that think truthteller shouldn't have any opinions about the
L & L shoots with "who cares about it all", feel they have the right to come here with their opinions. What if we have wave after wave of people coming here telling everyone "who cares". The only opinions that seem useless are the ones telling people they shouldn't have opinions and are wasting their time. Yet, they post here repeatedly about it.

I care when a company flunky comes here to deceive consumers of a product. I think we should be grateful someone with real knowledge of how things works can refute them.

Maybe next we'll have people that work backstage at Criss Angel's Vegas show tell everyone that has seen the show and doesn't like it that they are wrong because they aren't back stage to see all the wonderful things taking place.
~Joe
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