All in fun

Joe, you arguement against crediting is tired and over used. It's what I would expect from the teenager who is trying to offer a tiny variation of a marketed trick as his or her own. I know you enough to know that you know better.

Had this been just a Criss Angel magic kit, it would not be an issue. No one faults Criss for wanting to make a little money and keep his face in the public eye - just as no one faults Lance.

The problem comes when we consider statements made by Criss, Tim, and you.

When you consider the kit in terms of its alleged motivation and in context of its advertising, then issues creep in. If the goal is to give back to magic or get people involved - then renaming well established tricks with clearly delineated histories is wrong. We don't expect someone to credit loading a cup, but Professor's Nightmare is a different story. The hype implies these are ideas original to Criss or created/designed by him. This is simply not true. The ad implies it won an award. The four major toy fairs just concluded at which several magic kits were shown (and some kits have been honored in the past). Criss's kit did not win one of these industry acknowledged awards but a pretend one (ims) that even gullible people even in self-serving industry have come to realize is bogus.

In short, the issue isn't with the kit. There are dozens just like it.

The issue is with the claims made by those hawking the kit in relation to what the truth - as manifested in the product - seems to be.

Brad

It is one thing to not credit... basically not mention anything.

It is quite a different thing to say you invented things and name them as if you did.

I think much of the issue is as Brad mentions - it is how the kit is represented. Its claimed to be the best kit out there, $450 worth of value, hand picked by Criss because he wants to foster proper magic, ect...

Its like taking a Honda Accord and trying to pass it off as a Lexus.

Yes - the Honda Accord is a very fine car of its own merit, but you cannot call it a Lexus and expect people not to question it.

The kit is an OK kit - there are better out there however... and there are much worse too. To claim it will server intermediate and advanced magicians - that is somewhat bogus I think. Its a kit for kids when the better kits are not available, or if the family thinks CA is a good guy to learn magic from...

A lot of this thread has also sidetracked into the "what type of role model is CA"... well his recent idea of having a motorcycle make from human remains somewhat speaks volumes.

A middle aged goth man riding a bike make of human body parts....

I know that's what I want my kid striving for. Odd how so many people associate success and ability to mentor with how much money they make and seldom look at other aspects. I could go on about the whole body part bike... but why bother...

Lets face it - the media invented the CA persona.... just like the music industry invented the Britney Spears and the other fabricated performers. They then hyped up these folks in such unison across the media channels that mindless people bought into it, and then it became a hop on the bandwagon type deal. The corporate marketing moguls create these celebrities - not the fans... but that's a whole different argument past just a magic kit. Many of the role model types that would fit well for a magic kit are not media sensationalized to get noticed enough.


Take away all the CA branding, and the kit is an average kit. Its ok. Put all the branding back on it and the claims made, and it becomes a novelty kit meant to push CA's image and ego in an attempt to get more people to become part of his mindfreak mentality crew.

Its not about the magic - its about the commercialism.

Become a better role model, don't claim ownership or invention, mindset-wise be a magician before a celebrity... then it becomes about the magic.

Once you are gone and doing spongeballs for St. Peter, your ATM card gets cancelled... all you have left is your imprint on the world...

Truthteller,
You're entitled to judge but yet you convict.
You are wise so I ask for my own personal reasons: What is your opinion on Marshall Brodien selling the Svengali deck under his own brand? Please make it simple.
Joe Monti

Brodien never claimed he invented TV Magic Cards.

That was simple lol.

Let's be honest if this was a kit by a clean cut magician like Lance Burton we would not have all this talk. Because it is Criss Angel we disect every piece of the set looking for inaccuracies.
Here is something to chew on. In all forms of Performance art in the modern era Style outweighs substance. This has been going on for a while magic is finally catching up. I don't like but I am slowly coming to accept it. This is why Criss is a huge star, I am sure he would love to do an episode of close up no camera trick magic but the viewing audience really isn't intrerested in it.

If all you feed a person is hamburger and tell them all their life how great hamburger tastes - they will learn to love it just as you tell them...

the media creates these bozos and sells them to the public. Look at Britney Spears. Look at all these other bozos on TV... the media and marketing machines create these characters and convince the public they like them.

Sadly most people are content with riding along with everyone else...

its all a self fulfilling prophecy.


Look at ellusionist, theory 11, all the various novelty card decks...

the magic media has every young new kid convinced that flaming skulls and goth demon tattoos are the cool thing. And everyone is trying to jump on the bandwagon to make a buck off it. The more flaming skull crap that comes out, the more the marketing machine praises it. Its money before magic in many cases.

cant be cool unless you wear black, lots of goth chains, and carry an ellusionist deck!

Card Shark puts out the phoenix deck - a great deck - but do you see any of these goth enamored bozos touting it? heck no - they flock to ellusionist - cause its the cool place to be.

Its like any young kid scene. Later if they keep up with magic, they will see all that is garbage.

The bad part is all that goth skull black mamba kill babies voodoo ride a human bone cycle junk does NOTHING but pull them away from what magic really is. Paris Hilton can wear a million dollar dress - but its still Paris Hilton inside...

People can defend CA all the want. Deep down they know he is not serving magic in its best interest. They also know that CA is a free money ride due to all the kids falling for this crap.

Joe Monti - I like your personal work - but I cannot take what you say about CA as true. You draw a HUGE paycheck from him... of course you wont dirty the plate you eat from.

fact is all of this angst has come out over a magic kit - its not about the kit. Its about the degree of disgust people in this business have for CA.

It would be no different than the level of disgust if Paris Hilton claimed she was an award winning actress and her movies were better than any other movies out there. Of course the legitimate actors would be in an uproar - especially when the media sided with her... no different here.

Magicians feel CA is a toxic part of their business.

No one complains about Lance Burton, Mac King, David Blaine.... why? because they do not walk around with a billion dollar ego, doing dumb crap like buying a human bone cycle and telling kids how great he is.

I despise what CA instills into young folks. Dress sloppy, look gothic, middle age man trying to date vegas strippers and bim bos. Drive a cycle made of human remains - its ok to disrepect the dead like that kiddies!

Joe - imagine your kid coming up and saying Daddy, can I get a human leg bone for my big wheel? CA does it, and you said he is a good guy - so it must be ok. Plus daddy, I want to start dressing like CA - can I get some chains, a lot of black clothes? you wont mind will you daddy? Oh and money is more important than truth daddy - CA said he invented Christophers Nightmare, so daddy, why are you mad someone ripped off your Monte effect and said it is their invention????

There is social responsibility to being a role model. You put your image on the box, you better live up to being scrutinized by the public. You are a poster boy for what kids look up to - either take that honor and do what it takes to foster positive and respectable kids - or pass the honor to someone else...

ok I'm done ranting...

Isn't interrested in it? Most of his audience were unaware that Criss Angel was largly relying on camera tricks. They became fans because they actually thought he was performing magic in front of real spectator's. If they knew right from the start that he was using camera tricks, his show would of never been as successful as it was.

His occassional close-up tricks, (courtesy of the creative magic consultants who worked for him) were not even his own idea's.

Yes, it's true that Criss Angel's image was marketable, but even Criss Angel knew that that could only go so far. He needed to accomplish something in magic that no other magician had done. Because as a magician he wasn't that talented, for him to do that, Criss Angel exploited the trust that magicians do not use camera tricks. Criss didn't just add a few camera tricks here and there, he built his reputation on it. He exploited the use of stooges as well, and his audience was oblivious to it.

Criss Angel would never of been able to accomplish what many top stage, and close-up magicians have accomplished if he did not resort to camera tricks. You will never see Criss Angel doing a live touring stage show. And if you did, I can pretty much bet it would be just as much as a failure as "Believe".

As a Christian, I obviously have a problem with his image, that's a no brainer. I think he's a terrible role model for kids, but he's not the only one I think is a terrible role model.

I really struggle with what Criss Angel has brought to magic, because I can't think of one thing he has created on his own. I also don't know if Criss Angel actually popularized magic again, or if it was David Blaine who did that with his "Street Magic" t.v specials, and Criss Angel being an oportunist took advantage of being at the right place and the right time, and being willing to throw ethics out the window for fame, glamour and money.

I don't hate Criss Angel, but I don't care for his image or his brand of magic. I also find him to be a self centered, egotistic, cantankerous indavidual.

The magic kit really sounds like more of something to boast Criss Angels's ego than something to help beginner, intermediate, and advanced magicians.

No matter what I think of Criss Angel, I do note hate him. I also don't have to make ignorant remarks to those who do like him. I don't feel compelled to attack those who think he's great. To each their own, "all in fun" put aside.

Anyways, I have posted one too many posts regarding Criss Angel, and I shall now move on to other topics.

Anybody heard of "as nauseam"?
I think this might rival the Trabucco Holdout thread, now that was a hoot of a thread.
If this topic hits 8 pages, I going to pick up the magic kit just for poops and giggles and donate it too our pre-school teacher who dabbles in doing magic for the kids especially on rainy days to curb that cabin fever.

Posted: Mar 3, 2010 9:52pm
Darn it! Ad Nauseam.

Posted: Mar 3, 2010 10:03pm
Hey MMReed, I agree but you know what? The sad truth is the ignorance of the masses (American Stupidity) is alive and well and as American as apple pie and trumps any logical reasoning or common sense.
Ever watch an episode of Cops? I think I'm digressing.
Don't worry too much, classy magic with maturity and real talent does prevail everyday I think. It's just that CA is getting a free extension on his 15.

No one faults criss for having a kit. Good for him. The issues concern his statements about said kit. Either his claims are disingenuous or he lacks the competence to achieve his sincerely stated goal. Neither condition speaks well of him. Frankly, I wish he had paraphrased the prologue from expert. I could respect that.

But there is nothing wrong with selling ethically obtained magic items. I remember watching the Brodien commercials and even his pitchmen in the stores. I was a kid. I never once thought he invented the trick or that it was a new idea.

And had he claimed it as his, I think it would be ethically suspect, but I still don't think it would matter in the big scheme of thing.

What would matter would be him stating that his goal was to foster an interest/appreciation of/or participation in magic and then intentionally mislead the people he is claiming to want to help.

Lots of guys pitch Svengali decks.

God love them.

the smart ones don't claim to be offering something revolutionary, new, or a pretended altruistic motivation

This is a kit designed to make money and foster brand recognition for Criss. Its a combination of tricks which have been included in hundreds of kits over scores of years.

Nothing wrong with that.

Just stop insulting us by pretending its something its not. (That may be a hard habit to break, though).


P.s. I personally have no problem with Criss's looks or children watching him. I think some of his 'celebrity behavior' belies attitudes about others and self that I find repugnant, but I could care less if kids emulate his style. I kind of like the goth thing, though it was cutting edge about a decade ago.

I do not think Criss is a good role model for young magicians. I think there are greater goals than celebrity and I think we should be more concerned about the well being of magic over our personal advancement.

But these are irrelevant to the discussion of the kit. (To me, at least).

I again agree with most of what mmreed had to say. As a Celebrity that inspires Children, one should be more careful. Selling T-back Panties on his site with the slogan: "Are you ready" surrounding the Angel logo in the front. Clearly, not a responsible role model for young girls. As a side note I don't see Boxers on his store for men? Clearly one sided. Not that I would wear anything with his name on it. Just a curious thought? What is CA's goal? To be a great magician or project himself as a womanizing, eccentric, ego-maniac?

I believe that most everyone is inherently a good person. Everyone makes mistakes, and some have the Cajones to admit fault, and ask for forgiveness or correct it. I have recently thought about pulling all of CA's products from my store.

Number 1: I feel strongly as of late that as a representative of magic. CA has not shown the class or respect for the art that has made him very rich.

Number 2: It's my right.

Why should I even if in a small way, contribute to his pocket? Or advertise his irresponsible Celebrity. The other part of me wants to see him make amends with his mistakes, and clean up his act for the children that Eat and Breath Angel. Although, I don't see that happening. Sadly.

What are your thoughts?

WOW! As a newcomer to the forum but not to the art of practicing magic (as an amature no way near a professional), this whole thread has me perplexed...there are so many "sour grapes" here regarding CA...take a step back for a second and read the posts...um...jealous much??!!??

TV Magic cards...all Adams stuff when I was growing up...did ALL of these things credit the original creator(s)??? No

As for CA, say what you will about camera angles etc...he made his bones in TImes Square here in NY for years in a LIVE show before he hit it big nationally...

If this kit helps spark interest in magic its good for all involved ESPECIALLY dealers...and if its mass distributed in Wal Mart even better..

As for how he dresses and the "Goth" look...give me a break...a person should be judged by how he or she dresses?!? What?? This was AMERICA last time I checked...

Yikes I thought this was a forum to discuss magic not make small minded judgements based upon appearance and jealousy...

Well, if you go back and read the posts, you'll see that it has little to do with how he dresses. Is that all you got from all the posts? It goes far deeper than that for the many who disapproave of him. Mark and Truthteller pretty much sum it up best.

Jealousy? I think not. Why do some of those who like Criss Angel always think it has to do with jealousy? That's getting to be an old and over-used defense against those who articulate their displeasure with Criss Angel, and is starting to sound like sour grapes to me.

I would hope that those who like Criss Angel would be able to talk about all the reasons why they like him, and what they think he has contributed to magic, and not make small minded judgements on those who have expressed their dislike for Criss Angel, followed by their reasons too.

Yes, this is America, Canada, where we are allowed to dress like we want, talk like we want, act like we want, express out opinions, and speak our minds. We also have the freedom to except what we want, and reject what we don't approave of.

We also have a right to stand for something. Otherwise, we might fall for anything.

NYVetteGuy

His dress style is nowhere near the top of the list of issues with CA and how he represents magic.

You mention the Adamns items not crediting - that is true. However Adams never claimed to have invented those items either. There is a difference between not crediting and saying you created them. CA point blankly says he created these effects. Is that properly fostering magic?!?!?! nope

Camera tricks when used very seldom are one thing - but as others here have said, CA uses them as the predominant method. This misrepresents magic to those new kids watching it. They think that by getting into magic, they will learn real ways of doing these things. Then, once they see its all camera tricks, many become disenchanted with magic and end up discarding it. It would be like you going to buy a car after seeing a commercial that it has a super sound system, navigation, ect... then to find out those were only props used in the commercial, you cannot have those. It is a major let down to those that see CA do this camera trickery. Is that properly fostering magic??!?!?! nope.

CA is a very questionable role model. Buying a motorcycle made from human remains teaches kids its ok to disrespect the remains of the dead. Selling thong panties on his website where kids go and surf, and lets face it, his CA store is targeted at these kids - selling thong panties with his logo is not something a young pre-teen magician needs to be presented with. It is very tacky and crude. His egoism and materialism also sends a very wrong message. All of these traits and aspects make CA a very poor role model for young kids wanting to get into magic. Is this fostering a good role model identity for young magicians!?!??! heck no.

His style of dress is of the least concerns when the issues above are the real factors in why so many dislike CA (not hate - dislike... there is a difference)

Now he comes out with a magic kit, digging a path deeper into new young magicians. If the issues above were corrected, CA would be a standup great guy as a role model. Its not that hard for CA to step into the good light - credit where credit is due - or stop claiming you are the inventor of everything, do REAL magic - lessen the camera tricks and claims of them being real and NOT camera tricks, lose the stooges, stop living life as a rock star wanna be with no respect for life and those that got you there, stop being so tacky when it comes to what you offer... panties on a magic performer site is about as low class as you get. Much of what he does and how he carries himself just screams "trashy dirtbag" ... and only he has the power to change that perception that many have.

Yes this thread is becoming ad naseum - but for the right reasons. Many of us actually care about what the youth of today and magicians of tomorrow are exposed to.

I think if this kit had David Blaine on the box, and the claims of things being invented by him were not there, none of us would be speaking out against it. We would be endorsing it most likely. Would actors support a Paris Hilton acting class? heck no. I said many times in this thread that the actual KIT is a decent kit. The shortcomings of the kit are how it is represented and WHO represents it.

The 'sour grapes' argument is almost as old and tired as Joe's 'you can't credit the cups and balls' gambit.

If this were about jealousy, you would find people pecking at Lance, Mack, Blackstone et al for each having released kits in their names... And I would guess that given the choice of magically becoming any of the above or Criss, many on this thread would choose 'any of the above.'

I can't speak for everyone but I can assure you, I would not want to be Criss Angel even if it were offered to me. I am thrilled when I see magic portrayed artistically to real audiences. I think derren should be hailed as a hero for reforming what mentalism can be (and condemned for spurning so many brainless copycats - but I digress). I think ricky should be praised for positioning magic as legitimate theater and worthy of scholarship. I have tremendous respect for these men - and yet, I feel no jealousy. Go figure.

Criss has done a great job of positioning himself as a celebrity, landing a live performance contract which he is unable to fulfill as imagined (cirque execs have commented publicly on the differences between what a magician can do live versus what is possible on tv), and delivering the cheezewhiz equivalent of magic while betraying the trust built by magicians through the decades as to the use of tv in the presentation of magic. How can I be jealous of that?

I should add that criss's first tv special was a near copy of that which blaine pioneered and a diversion from the path criss had been pursuing up until that point.

But I suppose everything is fair game when the goal is the positioning of the self as celebrity

Again, why would anyone be jealous of this?

As to the kit comment - you apparently understand the condition but not the conclusion.

Its not about whether credit is given or not, its about misrepresenting the truth - either with implications of creation or the promise that what is offered is new.

I suppose getting people involved in magic is a good thing (we can argue about that) - but should we lie to them in order to do it?!?

I used to watch music award shows and see horrible, talentless people winning awards and basking in the light of enormous financial success.

Eric Clapton: Gifted
John Mayer ( even before the meltdown ): BORING!

Sam Cooke: Absolutely one of the most brilliant talents the world has ever known!
Dave Mathews: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

So, if people feel Criss Angel doesn't have the goods, yet basks in glowing success, they may feel resentment.

At least Criss included the classic unequal ropes trick and ball and vase in the kit. If kids stay with magic, they'll find out it's history down the road.

This thread along with a few others have shed the light. I am in dis-belief, and for the first time not by the magic before me. But, by the dis-respect to those before us by CA.

Henning, and Blackstone are rolling over in there graves right now. Chriss I am saying to you directly right now... You could have the support of many people on this site that have great influence in this industry, all wanting to support you. But in a new, and refined direction.

However, you must correct the past, and the present. It would be really big of you too personally address these arguments against you. We know that you are reading these words working so close to Safuto. You must understand that the talent that encompasses this forum out dates even Elvis Presley himself. So working with that in mind, know that we are only bug specks on the window of knowledge contained in this forum. This is your resource if you can humble yourself enough to reveal it's treasure.

I am calling out too you! We are only scrutinizing; because we see your capable talent moving in a sad direction.

We all want better for you, and the influence you have on so many.

My thoughts ~

This thread isn't about knock offs, its about a particular magic kit and all that needs to be said about it has been said.

There is however no gray matter to Criss riding a human remains scooter and selling panties to his magic followers...

any predictions on how many pages this thread ends up?

And a lot of people try to make grey what is more cut and dried then they let on.

Applying outside technologies to magical applications is a creative leap and one worthy of protection. The person who makes that leap deserves to reap the benefits of that creativity. It is easy to yell 'oh. That just an old physics idea. Anyone could have come up with that.'. Thing is - they didn't.

... Until someone starts making money off of it then suddenly everyone has 'known' about this principle for years.

As to the chopstick/knitting needle issue: I know John casually. I would be willing to bet that if someone had a truly different application of the idea he marketed, John would offer his blessing.

But after the pen release we didn't see needles and chopsticks - we saw exact duplicates, then minor variations all replicating and using John's basic idea - none with permission.

Do you think these releases were offered in order to help further and build on John's discovery or were they meant to profit as quickly as possible off his work? (And please, don't play 'criss angel' and insult us by claiming altrusim when none existed. Why copy the style; coopt a variant of the name?)

How long does John own the idea? I don't know. But asking him would be a good start.

The reality is we now have dozens of pen through anything knock offs and not a single new idea from John. Why? Because he sees little point in extending his work to our community when all we do is rationalize theft in terms of market forces and alleged advancement.

I don't know about you, but I would rather have one pen thru anything and a dozen cornelius offerings than a dozen pens and no more cornelius.

As to independant invention - it happens. It has nothing to do with this discussion and only swirls the water when it is otherwise clear. Two people releasing similar ideas at nearly the same time is NOT the same as putting out a copy of a recent hit with minor stylistic variations yet similar look hoping to capitilize on another's work.

I know many of magic's leading creators. All of them - if approached with a genuine advancement or true variation - would happily offer their blessing to a release. But changing the color of a candle is neither and improvement or a variation.

And the knock off guys know this. That's why they don't ask. That's why they rationalize.

I don't know about you, but I'm saddened when we loose access to creative people like pressley guitar and john cornelius.

Once you factor that in, those inexpensive mont blancs suddenly come with a hefty price tag.

It boils down to the criss angel issue: which is more important - the individual doing/getting what he wants without regard to means or consequences or the state/well being of the art as a whole.