Actually, before anybody decides to put words into Steve Forte's mouth.......please read the article linked to.

Forte didn't say traveling card cheats were a dying breed, he was being interviewed by a guy who didn't understand the words he was using, and Forte said "Crossroaders" were a dying breed.

Now anybody who thinks Steve Forte doesn't understand the classical meaning of the term "Crossroader" as a hustler who works in casino's really doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

Just because Forte didn't go into a lengthy correction of the interviewers use of the term "Crossroader" doesn't mean he himself (Forte) doesn't know what it means, and doesn't state clearly and directly that Crossroaders are a dying breed (which they are).

Nowhere in that particular exchange is there reference to a traveling card cheat (who isn't a Crossroader).

Nowhere does Forte imply that guys like Doc aren't still out there, and aren't still making a living.

Forte doesn't need me to keep the punters from taking his name in vain, but if you're going to post, please at the very least be accurate, and let Forte speak for himself rather than put words in his mouth.

For anybody here who doesn't understand what the word "Crossroader" means in the sense that it's used by guys who know what they're talking about, please take the time to go learn.

Thanks Silverking, BTW this was re-defined within the first few posts of this thread. I for one did not understand the difference between a road hustler and a crossroader which is why I put the question to the forum.

Doc, Thank you for your perspective. I have often wondered about the cultural influence on who is cheating at what and for how much. I hope you are compiling a book or something, Id almost pay to print and bind the collected posts of Unknown419!!

By the way I was fortunate to come across your videos on youtube. Thanks for posting those!

Cheers

Great job, silverking; you are indeed a very patient man to tackle what needed to be said, but few of us were willing to make the effort to clarify.

I wholly concur with your assessment, but readily admit that I have tried to curtail my responses in defense of Mr. Forte for the reason that you cited: Steve Forte doesn't want or need us to defend him against misquotes and erroneous interpretations of his statements...but, nevertheless, as his friend it is ofen difficult to sit idly by reading posts that do so.

Ironically, it was Steve Forte who introduced me to the very old term "crossroader" more than a decade ago, at a time when the term was obsolete and rarely even used anymore by those hip to its real meaning. Intrigued by the historical significance and value, however, still I used it in many of the training guides that I wrote in the 1990's, regardless of the fact that the true crossroaders and those pursuing them recognized that the term was outdated.

I've heard supposed casino security experts on TV wrongly define the term, with one noted "expert" saying that it referred to casino cheats who walk across the street from one casino to another to rip-off the houses.

Thanks again for setting the record straight, silverking, for Steve Forte and his fans like me.

Bret

This discussion of terminology is interesting. I like it.

But in the end, the real question isn't about linguistics. Let's leave that to the idiots with PhDs in the subject. The question is about whether the people exist, whether they call themselves "road hustlers" or "crossroaders" or "boomboomers" or whatever.

Do some men and women travel around cheating people at private gambling games?

I think so.

Are there fewer than in previous years?

Maybe.

Has anyone really infiltrated the Vietnamese community? The Turks? The Iranians? The Latinos? Have any of you read the most recent (a decade old) census statistics? Do the census statistics report on private gambling games?

I'm sorry, and I know that I have become some kind of *** at the party in this whole forum, but I'm really, truly interested in what's going on in the world and in the USA regarding gambling, and I just don't think the people in this forum are really on top of the subject. Sorry. I could be wrong. But it seems everyone forgets that one out of five people in the United States doesn't even speak English at home. That's sixty million people. What are their gambling habits?

For sixty million people there is no difference between "crossroader" and "road hustler".

And Steve Forte obviously knows that. But some of his students forget it, I'm afraid.

What is the Vietnamese word for "crossroader"?

Stoney,

Terminology is the issue at hand, since the term crossroader as Steve Forte used it referenced soley those who cheated at casinos, the number of whom have decidely declined since the invention of, and ever expanding use of, surveillance cameras.

Sorry, but I cannot offer any insight into the number of private game cheats, but I suspect that there are still many.

Bret

I suspect all of them.

I'll assume this is a shot at me and I'll address it as such.

To repeat myself once again, "road hustler" was a term used to describe the crews who traveled the U.S. and Canada spreading games at conventions, stags, etc... Imagine a hotel hosting a big conference, the dice hustlers start on the top floor of the hotel and work their way down, spreading craps in the hallways and steering suckers into the game by knocking on doors asking for change. This type of scenario was detailed in the Prus book and I've also heard the same type of setting described from a dicemaker who used to supply these types of crews back then.

When we say "crossroader" we are almost exclusively referring to early Nevada table game and slot cheaters. I own private manuscripts where interviews were conducted with now deceased crossroaders and it's quite interesting to read how they distinguish themselves from one another. "Poker cheaters" were viewed as a separate lot, for one. Not only can "crossroader" and "road hustler" be mutually exclusive but each term has it's own spectrum of technique and methodology associated with it, which I referred to in a previous post.

Yes, there are gambling cheats across all cultures, some who travel and play, others who try their hand at beating casinos. It still remains that crossroaders and road hustlers (in the classical sense) are pretty much a relic of a bygone era.

I don't see why this is at all controversial.

For instance, most of your crossroaders that migrated to Nevada came from previous hot spots such as Newport, Kentucky, Jackson Hole, Wyoming, Hot Springs, Arkansas, Galveston, Texas, and Steubenville, Ohio after most of the organized illegal gambling was closed down around the country in the 40s and 50s. These were also the people running the casino scene in Nevada between the 40s and 60s. Even today you can walk into the major sportsbooks here in Vegas and search out the old-timers--most were working in illegal books all over the country before they came to Vegas.

It's like you're trying to say that the Viking, Samurai, and U.S. Army Ranger are all one and the same. Sure there's similarities but they are all representative of a particular time period in history.

It wasn't, Z. Sorry if you misunderstood. I appreciate your comments in this thread.

That depends on who you're talking about.........so you're both right and wrong.

You're certainly correct that some in the forum are far from "on top" of the subject, but they're effectively countered by those who may have important or interesting information to offer those taking the time to read and comprehend.
I know I take note of guys that, when they post here, I stop and make sure I absorb what it is they're saying.

I think it's somewhat pointless to engage with folks at a serious level about the classical concept of Road Husters when it's pretty clear that some of those commenting to date haven't read the Prus book, and therefore have no idea what the scene was in the time prior to the book being written.
It's not like there's a dozen books on the subject, and any one of them will do.

On the other hand, you've got Doc stating clearly that he's personally out there, working for a living........information doesn't get any more pure than that.
Doc would have to comment on whether he thinks the larger crews referenced in Road Hustler are still active, or if most guys work single-o, or with one partner.
Nobody is saying the Road Hustler stuff is absolutely dead, with absolutely nobody engaging in that type of activity any longer.
What they are saying is that it's substantially reduced from times past.

They ARE saying that the concept of the true Crossroader hustling multiple casinos is over. This doesn't mean there aren't guys trying to take down casinos with some sort of scam every day, but the dedicated Crossroader, making his living going from room to room working some sort of hustle month in and month out are largely done, if not completely dead.
Modern surveillance, casino intolerance, networked computers and dedicated private enforcement businesses pretty much ended the Crossroader game.

My earlier point about the word "Crossroaders" is not meant to start a linguistic debate, but rather remind (some) folks who appeared confused that the word does have a very specific meaning.
99% of the time "Crossroaders" is used here on the Magic Café, it's used in the wrong context by magicians who think they know what it means.......but are wrong.
My point was that there are in fact folks who do know what it means, and those folks might not feel obliged, or inclined to stop and explain it every time it's used incorrectly.

Croosroaders, road hustlers, ect. People can say they are one on the internet... But proof? No.

It means a lot to me who says they cheat and who doesn't. I think there is something to be said about someone who brags about it.

Silverking, your point is well taken.

And everyone should remember that I am one of the people who needed the clarification of the precise meaning of the term, which is why I appreciated Z's post on the subject.

I'm here to learn, not to preach, and I apologize for getting on people's nerves.

In my defense, I would simply explain that by "on top of things" I meant something like having a 2010 version of Prus's work. That's what was on my mind. By "students of Forte" I meant precisely anyone who bases their information solely on CGP, which obviously excludes Z or Silverking. But I think it is no secret that that the greater part of discussion in this forum takes place via PMs and emails, so one can readily understand that I was not necessarily referring to people who have publicly posted in this thread.

Y'all have a good day. I'm off to the pub for some poker.

Good luck

Mr. Z: Those manuscripts sound fascinating. Do you have any plans or any interest in releasing them to the public in some kind of limited edition? I for one would love to read them as others would I am sure if you had any inclination to release them.

CHEATING WITH LOADED DICE.

John Harris v. Nicholas Bowden.

** Action upon the case, because the defendant at D. enticed the plaintiff to play at dice, at a sport called five or nine, Intending to deceive him and get his money; and he by the defendant's persuasion did play with him at the said sport ; and the defendant In playing at the said sport, delivered to the plaintiff quosdam talos veraciter titulatos (true dice properly marked or spotted) to play with ; and when the dice came to the hands of the defendant, he by practice falsely and fraudulently quosdam alios talos falso et subdole titulatos (dice marked with false and fraudulent spots) quos numeros quinque vel novem aliquo jactu unquam attingere a scivisset adhunc et ibidem projecity and then played with the said false dice (being able to throw five or nine whenever he chose), by which the plaintiff lost to the defendant divers sums of money amounting to forty-one pounds six shillings and elghtpence : and the defendant falsely and fraudulently, under the colour of getting, took and carried away the said money, to his damages two hundred marks. The defendant pleaded not guilty, and it was found against him ; and it was alleged in arrest of judgment —
1. Exception that the word talos was no word for dice, sed non allocatur : for it is a proper word for dice.
2. Exception that the word lucisset was written with a c, which Is for shining; but " the record was viewed, and it was written with an Sy and the plaintiff had judgment.
This queer case is to be found reported In Croke's. Reports, in the time of Elizabeth, p. 90. The objection to the spelling of the Latin word Intended to mean had played will appear comic to my unprofessional readers but many similar and quite as ridiculous points will be found in the books as having been solemnly argued.


:)

No, sorry.

It's all history. This is all speculation. fun though. lol!

Danny out.

[quote]On 2010-03-08 15:28, Unknown419 wrote:
[quote]On 2010-03-06 03:17, FILL--IPINESS wrote:


Spot on - race and culture plays a big role in how the games are run.

for example, I never, ever seen a black guy playing 3cm or the shell game. In Europe, the game is run by white guys, mostly Romanian. Anyone black who came up to watch or play was sent away because they african immigrant population was seen as too poor.

I did see a black guy drop several hundred euro in about five minutes (see January Magic Magazine) but he was the exception not the rule.

I'm keen to head over to the US to see how the game is played there.

Doc - You see a lot of salt and pepper plays?

Dead.....

Doc,Nicholas, There was a mexican crew running monte in vegas at the Pacquiao vs. Cotto fight...