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Woland
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Statistics within one country can be used to show a secular trend, avoiding comparisons from country to country that involve many uncorrectable variables.

According to statistics maintained by the FBI, since 2005, the number of firearms purchased by private citizens in the US has increased by double digits every year. In 2009 alone, it is estimated that private citizens in the US bought at least 12 billion rounds of ammunition.

During the same time period, according to FBI crime statistics, incidents of murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault all significantly declined.

More guns = less crime, when law-abiding citizens can have them.

But that population-based observation does not necessarily mean that any particular individual should go armed. Beware of the probabilistic fallacy, search your conscience, know your own abilities, and govern yourself accordingly.
J.G. the magnificent
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Quote:
On 2010-06-04 15:03, Woland wrote:
Statistics within one country can be used to show a secular trend, avoiding comparisons from country to country that involve many uncorrectable variables.

According to statistics maintained by the FBI, since 2005, the number of firearms purchased by private citizens in the US has increased by double digits every year. In 2009 alone, it is estimated that private citizens in the US bought at least 12 billion rounds of ammunition.

During the same time period, according to FBI crime statistics, incidents of murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault all significantly declined.

More guns = less crime, when law-abiding citizens can have them.

But that population-based observation does not necessarily mean that any particular individual should go armed. Beware of the probabilistic fallacy, search your conscience, know your own abilities, and govern yourself accordingly.

I couldn't agree more back when everyone carried something and you had a right to stick up for yourself their was less crime. Now people get offended easy and little can get you hurt if not killed and it is the innocent that don't' have self defense. "Their is a old country song about it my freind let me hear". The crimminals always find a way to have one even if they are illegal. Out lawing them only makes things worse. Kind of like the prohibition. They legalized it because outlawing alchohol only caused more problems. They are slowly becoming more linient on pot and such for the same reason.
Jeremy Gates
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As someone suggested in one of my discussions carry a 44 magnum bang-stick wand. Or like I thought to do a fire wallet in their face as it is handed over. Though I would need to buy one so think to use a modified cigarette lighter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sYEi3L-p-U though it is cheap a bit more money will buy me a mace being much more effective than a simple stunner to distract them before I beat them and run. So I am going to buy one of those to use instead maybe a pen mace one day.
As far as other methods go though most distracting them and catching them off guard so I can run. I have a dummy wallet with a little money in it and two cards glued together for throwing after I grab it with money shaking acting scared. As I drop the money they go for it and I throw a card into the back of their neck. Got that from CARDS AS WEAPONS. Another method is a thunder snap inside wallet I can throw that sounds like a gunshot hopefully scaring the mugger off. Also if the mugger doesn’t run it is sure to get attention from people for help if they don't go running. Or I can just simply hand them the dummy and slice them with a razor blade attached to a small board slab glued to one side hidden underneath. As they grab I pull out to the side. They scream in pain bleeding and I run for it. This I don't have in pocket sitting down and place in pocket with blade up. If I get pick pocketed the guy gets sliced and alerts me. Though I half to be careful removing it with fingers moving around its edge covering it so as not to get it caught and cutting my pocket up.
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There are allot of styles out their though when it comes down to it they are moves for moves. The average person just uses instinctive plain punches and choke holds. Martial arts could be useful to an extent against chokes and blocking punches. Though really you aren't up against an expert fighter usually depending on your area. In my opinion it is really about surprise attack and practical tools. A pen to jab with, a key to slash with, wallet chain to whack with. What I mentioned above, I have even researched the possibility of a taser wallet. The post was about defense in general though and not necessarily muggings so enough of the wallet stuff. I would just leave it at practical tools. You could beat them with your table or cups. http://budk.com/Self-Defense/Firefly-950K-Stun-Gun Tase them with a deck of cards. Though sometimes a simple fist in just the right spot will do especially if you panic too much to think about tactics. I hear right along the jaw even with a weak punch can render someone unconscious if in the right spot. The nose smashed with a palm strike is supposed to gush blood and pain. Even grab the throat just right near the Adams apple as you use your other arm to punch them as my friend suggested. He is teaching me. He lives in a bit of a crime area and has been held up a couple times.
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Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2010-03-03 11:14, tabman wrote:
When I was on the road with Elvis old backup singers, Memphis, one of the singers had a cool little black leather wallet with a built in 25 cal pistola with a trigger finger hole in it. He would carry his cash in his front pocket and the wallet-pistol in his back, you get the picture.

Our tour bus was like an armed camp but we werent overt about it, just Caréful. It was in the early 80s. Also, the high sheriff of Davidson Co TN (Nashville) Fate Saunders was in the habit of deputizing all the entertainers who did benefits for him and we all had deputy badges and ID too. Sheriff Fate later went to prison for corruption but he was always decent to the entertainment community.

Get a Derringer. Smile


These wallets are now illegal.
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Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2010-06-03 07:05, Tim Dowd wrote:
Another link I'm afraid... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou......ath_rate


Wikipedia is possibly the least accurate source of information on the internet. Remember it is written by its subscribers, most of which have no credentials of any kind. In this case, much of the data is over 15 years old. Comparing the US death rate by firearms in 2004 with the death rate in Mexico in 1993, for example, is ludicrous.

Firearms infractions and violent crimes involving firearms should be viewed by State, when quoting US crime rates. I live in Texas. We experienced a verifiably significant drop in violent crime involving firearms the year after concealed carry first went in, and in at least the two years following it. Not all states in the US have concealed carry laws. In many of the states, concealed carry is not permitted, nor is open carry.

In Texas, were first allowed to obtain permits to carry concealed in 1999, which is six years after the first statistics in the Wikipedia article. I obtained my concealed carry permit shortly after that, not to carry weapons of any kind to magic shows or other similar performances, but because I was involved in Western Theatrical work, which required that I use actual firearms and not cap pistols. At the time, Texas law stated that if I had firearms in my vehicle, I was required to go directly to the place they were being used (firing range, repair facility or performance) without making any stops (such as gasoline, lunch, picking up other members of the troupe). The concealed handgun license eliminated that problem.

In order to obtain said license, I had to undergo a thorough background check by both the Texas Department of Public Safety and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I had to take an eight hour course that covered gun laws, anger management and the simple logic of carrying a pistol or revolver. I had to pass a written examination that covered the material quite exhaustively, and I also had to qualify on the shooting range.

The main things I took away from that class was that:
1) Drawing a pistol is the second to last resort.
2) Shooting someone is the very last resort.
3) There is no such thing as an "OOPS" or an "Oh, S**T!" when a bullet you fire hits someone it wasn't intended for.
4) Someone yelling an obscenity at you is not a reason to shoot them.
5) It's better to duck for cover than to shoot back.
6) Don't assume that because someone has tied a woman to a tree and is apparently slapping her that he is doing it against her will. They may be enjoying it. Call the police instead.
7) Having a concealed handgun license does not make you James Bond.
8) If you think you have had a bad day, wait until you shoot someone. Then you will have a really bad day that will stay with you for the rest of your life.
9) Don't shoot anyone, unless your life or the life of one of your family is clearly in danger. Then call your lawyer and 911 in that order.
10) On second thought. Don't shoot anyone, if there is any way to avoid it.
11) It's cheaper to replace your car and its contents than it is to pay a defense attorney.

So, what good is a concealed handgun license? Well, let's see. Monday when I went to Travelex to get a draught on a London bank, I needed two pieces of identification. When I purchase a handgun or a rifle, I don't have to go through a background check. My CHL provides that check in advance.

And the more people who have CHL's, the more likely a violent person is to wonder whether YOU are the fellow who is packing heat.

BTW, I never carry. I don't need to.

However, I do have a walking stick. At my age, it is a necessity. And I can do almost all the moves I learned while taking bayonet training in the Army with a walking stick.

It's called "Cane Fu."
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
tabman
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Quote:
On 2010-06-09 15:43, Bill Palmer wrote:.....However, I do have a walking stick. At my age, it is a necessity. And I can do almost all the moves I learned while taking bayonet training in the Army with a walking stick.

It's called "Cane Fu."


All my life Ive always heard that it's pretty stupid to pick a fight with an old man with a big stick.
...Your professional woodworking and "tender" loving care in the products you make, make the wait worthwhile. Thanks for all you do...

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Bill Palmer
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Sometimes a walking stick and an air of confidence is all it takes. Other times, a large, dense object makes an excellent shield.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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KirkG
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Give everyone guns. Let God sort them out. Smile
Bill Palmer
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Make 'em, pay for the guns first.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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Bill Palmer
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My real entry into the world of Show Biz was playing music in places that made the redneck bar in the Blues Brothers look like a palace. I had more b***s than brains back then. I never packed heat. I stopped a large number of fights by reasoning with drunks, though.

Once in a while there was a drunk who was completely impossible to convince of his stupidity.

I made it a point to become well acquainted with the local LEO's. There were lots of off-duty police officers and constables who would come by to watch our show. They saved our bacon on more than one occasion.

The funny thing was that some of the "perps" were people I had gone to high school with, but did not recognize me, because I had grown a beard. One was a B-team track "star" who had an ego the size of the King ranch. I watched him come to bail out a fellow who got arrested on a DUI charge. The little town we were playing in was right next to Houston, so when the call went out to stop the car, I was in the police station to watch him being brought in. A fellow with him said, "I DEMAND a blood test."

The admitting officer said, "I can't give him one. We don't have a doctor on duty."

"I'm going to come back with a lawyer."

"Bring two."

It never hurts to have John Law on your side.

Re: Balloon lines.

I was working a show in a mall where one of our local clown/magicians/balloon guys was giving balloon animals out to all the kids. He worked an extra hour. The hours were clearly posted next to his stand.

He finally cut the line off.

"That SUMBICH didn't give my kid no B'LOON!" was the cry that echoed down the mall several times, just in case someone in Oklahoma didn't hear it the first time.

You can't please everybody. You surely can't please drunks.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
tabman
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Was that bar in Humble?? I think I played there.
...Your professional woodworking and "tender" loving care in the products you make, make the wait worthwhile. Thanks for all you do...

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Woland
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Sounds like a jumpin' joint . . .

Those who are interested in national differences in mass murder shootings might be surprised at a recent list of such events compiled by John R. Lott (he has recently published a 3rd revised edition of his book on guns and crime). The 3-worst K-12 school shootings (in terms of number murdered) occurred in Germany and Scotland; the Columbine shooting was the 4th worst. All of those 4 shootings occurred in gun-free zones, where guns in the hands of civilians are illegal.

Since 2001, there have been at least 18 mass shooting incidents in Western Europe, every one of them occurring in places where no civilian is permitted to carry a firearm.
J.G. the magnificent
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Use a mini baseball bat as a wand. A bit intimidating and a subtle warning. Even carry those fireworks you throw on the ground that explode. Only the really load ones a bit bigger. Sounds like a gun shot if they don't see you throwing it. Got my freind with one and with him growing up in a bit of a dangerous area I about got hit.
Jeremy Gates
Leland Stone
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Quote:
On 2010-02-25 08:48, BenSimon wrote:
*hesitatingly raises hand*

But after some people almost lnyching me for a handbag being stolen during my back room impromptu performance, I'm starting to think differently.


Thank you, BenSimon! That you are thinking differently shows a reasoned response rather than a brute Pavlovian reaction.

Our world is shared by violent, brutal persons who do evil merely for the enjoyment of inflicting harm on others. When confronted by such evildoers, responding with a cool head is commendable; responding with a cool head and superiour firepower is prudent. One would think your fellow Europeans would have learnt this lesson from Chamberlain's disastrous failure on the cusp of the Blitzkrieg.

Warm regards,
Leland Stone
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Years ago, the martial arts style I was in required you be in possession of some form of self defense weapon at all times. My favorite was a hatpin. About 4" long with a round ball at the blunt end. You would run this inside your belt so that only the little ball was showing. Many advantages to this legal aid...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
MagicbyCarlo
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Quote:
On 2010-06-09 15:43, Bill Palmer wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-03 07:05, Tim Dowd wrote:
Another link I'm afraid... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou......ath_rate


Wikipedia is possibly the least accurate source of information on the internet. Remember it is written by its subscribers, most of which have no credentials of any kind. In this case, much of the data is over 15 years old. Comparing the US death rate by firearms in 2004 with the death rate in Mexico in 1993, for example, is ludicrous.

Firearms infractions and violent crimes involving firearms should be viewed by State, when quoting US crime rates. I live in Texas. We experienced a verifiably significant drop in violent crime involving firearms the year after concealed carry first went in, and in at least the two years following it. Not all states in the US have concealed carry laws. In many of the states, concealed carry is not permitted, nor is open carry.

In Texas, were first allowed to obtain permits to carry concealed in 1999, which is six years after the first statistics in the Wikipedia article. I obtained my concealed carry permit shortly after that, not to carry weapons of any kind to magic shows or other similar performances, but because I was involved in Western Theatrical work, which required that I use actual firearms and not cap pistols. At the time, Texas law stated that if I had firearms in my vehicle, I was required to go directly to the place they were being used (firing range, repair facility or performance) without making any stops (such as gasoline, lunch, picking up other members of the troupe). The concealed handgun license eliminated that problem.

In order to obtain said license, I had to undergo a thorough background check by both the Texas Department of Public Safety and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I had to take an eight hour course that covered gun laws, anger management and the simple logic of carrying a pistol or revolver. I had to pass a written examination that covered the material quite exhaustively, and I also had to qualify on the shooting range.

The main things I took away from that class was that:
1) Drawing a pistol is the second to last resort.
2) Shooting someone is the very last resort.
3) There is no such thing as an "OOPS" or an "Oh, S**T!" when a bullet you fire hits someone it wasn't intended for.
4) Someone yelling an obscenity at you is not a reason to shoot them.
5) It's better to duck for cover than to shoot back.
6) Don't assume that because someone has tied a woman to a tree and is apparently slapping her that he is doing it against her will. They may be enjoying it. Call the police instead.
7) Having a concealed handgun license does not make you James Bond.
8) If you think you have had a bad day, wait until you shoot someone. Then you will have a really bad day that will stay with you for the rest of your life.
9) Don't shoot anyone, unless your life or the life of one of your family is clearly in danger. Then call your lawyer and 911 in that order.
10) On second thought. Don't shoot anyone, if there is any way to avoid it.
11) It's cheaper to replace your car and its contents than it is to pay a defense attorney.

So, what good is a concealed handgun license? Well, let's see. Monday when I went to Travelex to get a draught on a London bank, I needed two pieces of identification. When I purchase a handgun or a rifle, I don't have to go through a background check. My CHL provides that check in advance.

And the more people who have CHL's, the more likely a violent person is to wonder whether YOU are the fellow who is packing heat.

BTW, I never carry. I don't need to.

However, I do have a walking stick. At my age, it is a necessity. And I can do almost all the moves I learned while taking bayonet training in the Army with a walking stick.

It's called "Cane Fu."

Bill, I was hoping this thread had been shot dead, but "popped on" just to see where it has been going. I must say that #7 made me laugh out loud. As a retired LEO, I found ALL of your points on the money. Retreat and call in the professionals whenever possible.
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<BR>and all around fun guy!
Al Angello
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"Restaurant patron gets shot in argument with magician over a balloon"

This type of news paper headline could stop your career in it's tracks.
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Tim Dowd
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Thanks Bill... I never went to a firearms class but I can see from your list the material and instruction is first class. I really should read these links before posting Smile

I still think that carrying a weapon is a great responsibility, and I am not in your pro-gun/anti-gun mindset.
I was brought up to believe that it is not normal to carry guns. I can though appreciate that in a society where this is normal there may be a higher rate of gun related crime, and when the laws are amended to allow even more rights to carry guns the already higher rate would come back down towards normal levels.

My original post was my opinion that in a heated situation if no weapon is introduced then the highest form of escalation is "fisticuffs". Once a weapon is introduced then the escalation has a higher probability of becoming deadly and that the aggressor is more likely to use the weapon, whoever initially introduced it into the argument.

In conclusion (I promise I won't post to this thread again...) you need to be a certain type of person to be able to draw, point and pull the trigger of a deadly weapon. I can only assume that most dangerous criminals have no issues with doing this so if you draw and point but fail to pull the trigger, the assailant has the upper hand whether he has a weapon or not and you may end up being killed with your own gun. If you don't have one then the odds are that the issue will not escalate. I am of course talking about casual arguments outside venues and not in the middle of gangland or drug infested inner cities...

so to answer the question "do you carry protection to gigs?"
No, I don't
Timothy Dowd
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Hey Tim,

Nice post. Much more reasoned. Unfortunately you made a big error at the beginning when you wrote, " . . in a heated situation if no weapon is introduced then the highest form of escalation is "fisticuffs"." I am pretty sure you meant to say "if no gun is introduced . ." This is wrong on two counts.

First, fisticuffs are not equal if one is bigger, or more trained, or has that killer instinct you mentioned.

Secondly, often another weapon is brought to bear, like bottles, knives, cars, clubs etc.

Most who have guns and carry them, won't bring them out until the situation escalates to the point where it is necessary.

You have a very good pint in that if you are not ready to fight for your life, regardless of method, the bad guy has an advantage.
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