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Bill Palmer
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Actually, you must admit that you have NO evidence one way or the other.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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Woland
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In case anyone reading this thread is interested in evidence, at least statistical evidence, Howard Nemerov has compiled Brady Campaign scores, CDC gun-ownership survey data, and FBI crime data.

Click here.

The conclusions?

* States with the lowest firearms ownership average the highest firearm and non-firearm homicide rates.
* As firearms ownership rates increase, homicide rates generally decrease.
* States with the highest gun ownership have the lowest firearms homicide rates.

That's also true with respect to the right-to-carry. The approximately 40 states that require sheriffs to issue carry permits to any law-abiding adults who apply for them have lower firearms and non-firearms murder rates than those states which deny the right-to-carry or allow sheriffs to exercise personal discretion in issuing permits.

As far as the Brady Campaign is concerned:

* Brady’s favorite states experienced the highest rates of homicide.
* The general trend indicates that as Brady grades decline, so do homicide rates.
* Brady’s “worst” states experienced the lowest rates of firearms and non-firearms homicide.

No need to take my word for it.

You can click over to the article, and inspect the data tables yourself.

Maybe it is possible that individuals who carry legitimate tools for defending themselves do so because it is a reasonable, responsible thing for any good citizen to do.

Woland
Johnny Butterfield
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Gun homicides per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
USA (2001) 3.98
Canada (2002) 0.4
Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.

Toronto, with relatively strict gun control laws had 1.8 homicides per 100,000 population. St. Louis had 33.7*

Strict federal/provincial/municipal control of firearms makes you almost 10 times less likely to be murdered. In some cities, almost 20 times less likely.

*Source of Canadian stats: StatsCan 2004 (The Daily, July 21, 2005)
Source of American stats: Department of Justice Uniform Crime Reports
In Canada "Homicide" includes first and second degree murder, manslaughter and infanticide; in the in the United States it includes murder and non-negligent manslaughter
The current economic crisis is due to all the coins I've vanished.
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todsky
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I always found it perverse that on American TV, you are constantly barraged with violent programming and images of missiles obliterating villages in foreign lands, and yet when someone exposes a breast the whole country is in an uproar. I can only conclude that America fears love and sexuality, and its male population prefers Lockheed-Martin's exploding missiles to their own.

Guns represent death. They serve one function only, and that is to kill. America loves its guns. America loves its missiles, its fighter jets, "its bombs bursting in air". It's difficult for us Canadians, who don't share the same violent history, to understand this cult-like worship of the gun.

The following from Acecardician (not sure if that's his real name) is probably the most useful and pertinent post in this epic thread:

Quote:
On 2010-03-03 20:23, Acecardician wrote:
Back to the original post.
How about some helpful tips to try to not get in that situation?(I know we can't control the whims of irate people, but I found many of these things work to nip it in the bud:
To cut off a line, a clown friend of mine tells everyone he is on his way to Children's Hospital, that he has to go, he is late. Usually that shuts everyone up. I tried that line before and it worked.

Now when I book events to do balloons, I make sure I time it so that I finish when the event finishes and everyone has to leave. Or I find out how many kids and make sure they hire me for enough time so everyone gets a balloon. And I also have a "CLOSED" sign I made on my computer, I make several of them and tape one to the last persons back, and put one or two by me, and just point to the sign. I do this about 10 or 15 minutes before it was time to leave, so I can finish everyone in line. I've even bought rolls of tickets to give out. You need a ticket for a balloon.
I saw a face painter had a real cute rhyme on a laminated sheet they hung around the last persons neck. It was about being closed. It was so cute, you could not get mad at them.

Another idea is to tell them once you are finished any extra balloons are $5 each.
If they pay, then stay.

You can always leave if you say you have to go to the bathroom, that you are about to go on yourself.

I had another friend handle it in his contract. If he stayed over, each minute over the time was like $25 per minute. The person paying was sure to ALWAYS escort him out on time.

Once someone was waitng for my line to go down. It did not until I closed it. The agent for the event actually got at the end of the line to turn people away. When everyone was gone, I was packing up, and the person came up to me, thinking I had no one in line. Then I had to send them away. I went into the back to get paid. That person complained to the person in charge, so the agent paid me another $25 to go out and do that one balloon.

Coming up I am doing the Sheriff's Easter egg hunt. There will be thousands of kids. I did it 2 years ago. They had Sheriff deputies cut off my line. No one argued with them. When they re-booked me this year, I made sure to ask if they would be there to close off my line. She laughed and said yes!

Once in a public area, I had someone asking me how much money I made. My senses told me they might want to rob me. I made sure they knew I got paid by check or Visa Card ahead of time. Then I started making a lot of noise and attracted everyone and did a trick, and even a security guard came over to see what was going on. Then I got out of there.

I now work too many schools to carry. They are just not allowed, even with a permit. I think it is like 50-100 yards from the school. You get caught, you go to jail, and then you can never carry legally. Same thing with places that serve alcohol, which would be most of my adult shows.

I am a juggler, so I usually always have wooden bats and big heavy juggling blades with me that are visible.

(For the record, my training was as a Glockmeister.)

ACE
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Woland
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Dear Fman,

There are many, many other differences between the USA and Canada, historically, culturally, and legally, which make the comparison you show less meaningful than comparisons between different American states.

Woland
Al Angello
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Todsky
Thank you for bringing that great post to my attention.

Ace
Jugglers are just that much smarter than magicians. LOL
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Johnny Butterfield
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Dear Woland

Culturally and legally, we're far more alike than not. Our differences largely come down to spelling (colour, or cheque, or centre, for instance).

But generally, I think the stats will bear out that economics are a better indicator of where violent crime will occur rather than gun laws. Poverty and unemployment will lead to more deaths than the availability of firearms.

Are there any stats available on how many crimes guns prevent? Or how many armed people were the victims of violent crime? I'd be curious as to what that suggests.

To cherry-pick some stats;

New York City (Brady rating 50) 7.0 murders per 100,000 population
Boston (Brady rating 54) 10.5 murders per 100,000
San Diego (Brady rating 79) 4.8 murders per 100,00

St. Louis (Brady rating 4) 33.7 murders per 100,000
Dallas (Brady rating 9) 20.2 murders per 100,000
New Orleans (Brady rating 2) 56.0 murders per 100,000
The current economic crisis is due to all the coins I've vanished.
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Woland
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Fman,

As the epidemiologists like to say, it's multifactorial . . .

There are no statistics I am aware of for crimes that didn't happen.

Clayton Cramer tries to keep track of news stories about armed citizens who have thwarted or prevented crimes . . .

In all states that have adopted the shall-issue standard for concealed-carry permits, violent crimes against persons have declined.

Woland
imgic
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I tried staying away from this thread...but stats are being discussed and the geek in me just can't resist.

IMHO, there may be spurious correlation between concealed law states and crime rates. There are more variables involved in crimes than gun laws. I suspect that states that pass conceal laws tend to have a higher percentage of hunters, outdoorsmen, and others that grew up in a culture of properly handling a gun. These states are also likely to have less of the urban pressures that I suspect are larger drivers of crime rates.

And, as with anything, statistics can be interpreted in many different ways.

Again, just pointing out it's not a simple matter of direct correlation between two variables. Lots of factors in play here...willing to bet you'd find a correlation between the number of balloon artists in an area and the number of violent crimes. Not that the two are directly related...
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
Woland
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Dear imgic,

I agree that statistics do not necessarily support the answers their users think they support.

The available evidence, going back to the exchange that immediately preceeded my introduction of Howard Nemerov's analysis, the available evidence does not support the contention that concealed-carry licensees are "dieing to whip it out."

Woland
Bad to the Balloon
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Quote:
Again, just pointing out it's not a simple matter of direct correlation between two variables. Lots of factors in play here...willing to bet you'd find a correlation between the number of balloon artists in an area and the number of violent crimes. Not that the two are directly related...


Homicides hit 40-year low in St. Petersburg - St. Petersburg Times
Mar 12, 2010 ... Domestic violence resulted in five of the city's 11 homicides in 2009. Also, nine of those victims were killed by firearms.

Weird I can only think of 9 balloon artist out of St Petersburg..... Two moved away suddenly!!
Mark Byrne
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Countage
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Quote:
On 2010-02-24 10:40, derrick wrote:
Last night I had a new and disturbing experience. I finished up my restaurant gig, cut the line off, working about 30 minutes longer than I was being paid for and then put my things away. One of the parents pulled me aside to let me know there was a mad and intimidating looking man/father (bald, tattoos, lots of ink) that was angry I had cut the line off and that his child didn't get a balloon. When making balloons, one has to cut the line somewhere. He wasn't even at the cut off mark. He didn't complain to me or to management, but was mad enough to make other patrons uneasy. I informed our security about him and made my way out the door. I stopped at Best Buy on the way home and that's when I realized the guy had followed me there. I was looking at noise cancelling headphones when he slowly walked past without a word and just a threatening glare to let me know he was there. I informed security, went to my car and home. He didn't follow me home, and my wife is a police detective so I'm not too concerned about my personal protection at home, but it wouldn't be hard, with the internet today, to find out what my personal address is. So according to just how disturbed this guy is, in more ways than one, I a little concerned. Others had this problem?


Have you ever seen Bad Santa with Billy Bob Thornton. When the mother and child came up to him in the mall food court and said " Oh look its Santa" He said "I f****ing eating."
Bill Palmer
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One of the chief differences between the US and most of the rest of the world is that the US has a constitutionally guaranteed right to keep and bear arms. Most of the rest of the world does not. This includes Canada.

It's not so much that we love our guns. That's almost like saying that we love our lathes, our electric drills and any other tools that we have. It's that we love our rights and freedoms.

Take a look sometime at current events in Mexico. They have stricter gun laws than the U.S. In fact, they have stricter gun laws than Chicago or New York. But their murder rate by firearms incredibly high. And it's not the poor people who are doing the killing. It's the drug lords and their gangs.

Those same gangs are present in all of the border states, from California to Texas, and into Louisiana and over to Florida.

The part of Houston where I live was once a very peaceful suburban area. Now we are surrounded by MS-13, Crips, Bloods, Southwest Cholos and a host of other gangs most of you have never heard of.

We have a right to protect ourselves from these people. The police don't bother.

BTW, to get back to the original question. Do I carry protection to gigs? No. In Texas, it is illegal to take a firearm into a place that earns more than 51% of its income from the sale of alcohol, a hospital, a church or a school. Most of my work falls into one of those categories.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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todsky
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I guess the right to bear arms keeps the ultimate power in the hands (quite literally) of the people. Sounds democratic. I will ponder...

Meanwhile, I suppose if I lived in a neighbourhood where I feared for my safety and my life I might consider wielding some kind of 'protection'. Here in Montreal I've never feared walking anywhere day or night, although I have had some upset kiddies and parents who didn't get balloon sculptures when I had to leave (and I usually give extra time if I can). My biggest fear here is sculpting balloons and getting punched in the billiard balls by a 4 year-old boy just because he can and he's the right (wrong) height. (I wear a stainless steel jock ever since).
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Woland
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Todsky,

Remember that the Constitution does NOT give American citizens any rights that the people of any and all countries don't have . . . it just explicitly instructs the government not to infringe those rights with which we were already endowed . . . by our Creator.

Woland
todsky
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Woland,

Many countries' citizens don't have nearly as many rights as the USA, or Canada, or any other western democracy. And do you mean to say that your Creator endowed you with the right to use guns? I don't remember reading that in the Bible.
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Woland
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Dear todsky,

According to our Declaration of Independence, which has the force of Law in the United States, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

We claim that all human beings have these rights, the fact that their rights are not respected by various governments around the world doesn't mean that hose human beings don;t have those same rights, it just shows that those governments are unjust.

The right to keep and bear arms is a corollary of the right of self-defense, which is a corollary of the right to Life.

Woland
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That whole "all men are created equal" thing always makes me laugh. That was written by men who OWNED other men/women.
Woland
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Dear patrick flanagan,

Most of the founders, including more than a few slaveholders, knew that slaveholding was wrong; the Declaration is an expression of Truth rather than facts.

In a preliminary draft, Jefferson listed the slave trade as one of the abuses of the King: "He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivatng and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of INFIDEL powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce. And that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people for whom he also obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed against the LIBERTIES of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the LIVES of another."

That charge wasnot acceptable to the entire committee.

The problem of descrepancies between what an individual knows to be good and true and what that same individual does in daily life has been noted for a long time. Paul discusses it in the Letter to the Romans, Chapter 7.

Would you have done any better, in 1776?

Woland
todsky
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Quote:
On 2010-07-23 10:01, Woland wrote:
Dear todsky,

According to our Declaration of Independence, which has the force of Law in the United States, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

We claim that all human beings have these rights, the fact that their rights are not respected by various governments around the world doesn't mean that hose human beings don;t have those same rights, it just shows that those governments are unjust.

The right to keep and bear arms is a corollary of the right of self-defense, which is a corollary of the right to Life.

Woland


Thanks for clarifying that; I'm getting a good political education on this magic web site.
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