I have never done a cups and balls routine I was wondering where is the best place to start.. I love dai vernons routine and I was wondering does anybody know the best place to learn it?

I wrote a review of the Complete Cups and Balls from Michael Ammar here, if you want to read it...

http://sleightly.com/blog/2010/02/21/mic......balls-2/

The Dai Vernon routine is in the Vernon Book of Magic and as a small phamphlet. With all due respect to Michael Ammar, I think he got a few of the points wrong, so I would start reading the original very slowly and think about what you are doing. Other than a few grip changes and getting rid of the the "showing how you don't really take the ball" part, it is a great foundation and works well all by itself.

Steve,
I think most magicians love Vernon's routine too. I would start a little further back. That sequence is a huge amount of material to absorb and present well. The book Mr. Musgrave so wonderfully reviewed has several routines, completely explained and beautifully illustrated. The DVDs that mirror them are useful as well. I'd start with one of the simpler routines and work that up first.


Kirk,

Enlighten us, please.

How did Michael Ammar get it wrong? Most cups and balls guys I've spoken with think Ammar's description of Vernon's routine is better illustrated, written and explained than in the Ganson text. I certainly think the Ganson book is wonderful. I know Ammar did a better and more exhaustive job on the cups though.

You're recommending the routine, yet decry some grip changes and the premise of explaining a false transfer. You seem to be quite conversant with the material. Have you published your handlings? I'm not trying to be trite or snotty here. If you've got some good tips and modifications, I for one, would love to learn more about my favorite trick.

How do you perform the cups and balls? Do you use Vernon's routine. Or do you perform an entirely different version?


KG

Since the Ammar book on cups and balls is very difficult to obtain, I would suggest a slightly different approach.

First, get the Ammar videos. They give you three different routines, each of a different level of complexity and difficulty. They also give you the historical background you need to understand where the cups and balls came from.

There is also a booklet that you can get from almost any magic dealer, called Cups and Balls. This booklet was edited by Gabe Fajuri and published by Fun, Inc. I think the cover price is about $6.00. It even has a version of the Vernon routine in it. If you can't find someone who has it, send me a private message.

Bill

If you are really interested in the Professor's routine, get Stars of Magic, then the Vernon Book of Magic by Ganson and then if you really want to learn the business get Bob White's DVD. I learned Vernon's routine from the the Ganson book, took it as far as I thought I could go at the time, and I have learned the real finesse from Mr. White. Of course, he is one of my closest friends and I am biased so "caveat emptor".

The Vernon loading sequence is the most ingenious part of the trick in my opinion.

Almost everyone on here will disagree, but I would skip Ammar.

The main reason I recommend the Ammar DVD's is that he covers the basics completely, including many moves that are not even used in the Vernon routine. Although the Vernon routine is an excellent one, I don't believe we need any more people doing it.

Vernon's loading sequence is one of the best parts of his routine.

Bob White's DVD is also very highly recommended. If you want to learn the cups and balls you really should get everything decent you can find on the subject.

In fact, once you have started learning a basic routine, get the transcription of the cups and balls routine from Hocus Pocus, Junior. It's a free download from the cups and balls museum. There is one piece of advice in that routine that I have not seen in any other source (unless it was written in the past 10 years) that will save ANY sleight of hand artist a lot of embarrassment.

I think that bar none, the Professor's routine is the best. I would disagree with Bill, and say that we need more people doing the Vernon routine, but doing it well.

I have read many things on the cups and balls, including Ammar's book. One major flaw with Ammar's book in my opinion is that it covers too much material and can be confusing. How many ball vanishes does one need? I would say "one good one", but like I said others may disagree.

That's an odd couple of paragraphs there, since the Professor's routine involves two different types of ball vanishes in the opening sequence...

I agree with Bill; Ammar is very good. We recently had him into our club for a lecture; & I have both of his DVDs on the cups & balls & they are tops! I do the "Rub-a-dub-dub" C & B that I learned off of Bill Malone's DVD, "Here I Go Again," Vol. #1. However, right now I'm learning the late Jim Cellini's routine, which uses parts of Vernon's stuff, but looks better in my opinion. I think you've asked a loaded question here as opinions will vary.

Sir Richard.

I should also point out that the Stars of Magic version of Vernon's routine is in the Fun, Inc. booklet. Gabe got permission from the Vernon estate to include it in the booklet.

I would recommend Ammar's DVD's over his book. You get plenty of information, and you get three different routines, as I previously pointed out.

I like the gradual way Ammar introduces material in the DVD set. It's a well-planned, graduated road to the cups and balls.

I do not think that you can have too much material to work with. I do think that you can have a routine that has too much material in it, though.

I would rather see someone do an innovative, relatively original cups and balls routine well than see someone do a mediocre job of parroting the Professor.

Addendum:

Some of the best street performers do variations on the Vernon routine. Gazzo's routine came from the Vernon routine. So did Cellini's (or at least one of them).

However, there have been some mighty powerful routines lately -- Shawn Farquhar's, Kent Gunn's, Al Schneider's, David Regal's, Antonio Romero's, Jason Latimer's -- each have added new views of how the routine can be performed.

I learned much of my present routine from the "Exposed: The Cups & Balls" DVD starring Carroll Baker. The cost, last time I looked, was less than $15 and contained a wealth of information.

I was looking at getting a 2 DVD set on the cups & balls on Ebay from a gentleman named Eddy Ray. I have purchased other items from him in the past and liked them. Any idea how good this DVD set is? I won't put up a link to them, but a search for "Eddy Ray" or "cups & balls" (yes the quotes are needed) will usually bring up SOMETHING!

I am finally starting to relearn my cups & balls routine with some new twists taught to me by another person who likes it more than I do. I am even trying to learn how to do a surprise load at the end, something I have always been afraid to do.

Watched the Aldo Colombini FISM routine and was also totally blown away by it. Very difficult to learn, but it appears to be well worth it.

Start with the Vernon routine as it covers many of the basic moves and feints. Once mastered then start reading everything you can find on the routine and start to tailor your own presentation. Remembering that a good presentation is about you nd your interaction with your audience. Not just a bunch of moves with the cups and balls.
My routine took many years to perfect and took bits from Vernon, Ricky Jay, Aldo Comlumbini, bBob Read, Harry Anderson, Gazzo, and Samuel Rid

I just did a TV special and closed with the cups and balls. For lay audiences it is hard to beat the Vernon routine. I love the Cups and Balls, but so many variants have done much to confuse the viewers.

Clarity of effect is the important key.

Now for magicians, go for the variations, go to fool us. That's a completely different sport.

And it's a fine sport at that!

Thanks guys I will take a look at everything you guys have suggested - great advice on where to start !

Let me make myself clear on this. I do not dislike the Vernon routine. I think it is one of the best around.

But I don't think it is the best starting point if you don't have someone around who can help you get started.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a true cup and ball fan who disliked the Vernon routine.

The first cup and ball routine I learned was from Mark Wilson's Complete Course in Magic. Frankly, for someone with little to no magic experience, the routine taught in that book is excellent.

The Vernon routine is not easy to do well. It is not easy to thoroughly understand all of the components. That being said, in my estimation, it is the best close up version of the cups and balls there is.