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mark townsend Regular user 132 Posts |
Hi Freinds,
I was just tackled by a humanist over the same issue that usually only ever gets expressed (to me anyway) by fundamentalist Christians. He said this in a letter: '@If your intention is to solve mysteries, then I presume you will explain that the performance of acts in front of children by yourself will afterwards contain a description of how the 'magic' is done and what methods you had adopted in order to deceive the viewers.’ This was my reply: The last thing I would wish to do is ‘solve mysteries’ if indeed it were possible. Mystery is what keeps life worth living. All great mythology is about awakening mystery not solving it. It’s about the use of metaphor to point to the indescribable. Of course the great Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung and others were masters at explaining this, and were (consequently) quite a threat to the strict literalist / fundamentalist mindset. Magical performances do the same thing as myth – they point (symbolically) to mystery. Everyone in the audience knows that they are being ‘tricked’ so there is absolutely no need to explain the mechanism. But the ‘being tricked’ actually has the capacity to enhance the sense of mystery and create wonder. There is a mile of difference between a person on a stage who adopts the person of a ‘magician’ as an entertaining performance, and someone who pretends to have magical or psychic powers and then blatantly manipulates the audience for his or her own gain. Magic keeps people open. Mystery keeps people adaptable and free. Explaining everything literally closes folk down and makes life mundane and robbed of wonder. I have only ever been asked to ‘explain’ my magic tricks in the way you have alluded to by the most conservative of Christians. I responded to their demands via a passage in my latest book: (Quote from book) An example of the kind of objections I receive can be seen in the following letter to the local press: ‘To use deception as a window to God is highly dubious. I have always believed that, at the very least, using his magic tricks in a Christian context, Mark should be prepared in the end to show how they are done, after all they are playing on people’s naivety, and those people are worth more than that.’ In other words I should only do magic tricks if I then show that they are not real magic by exposing the method. However I suspect that most audiences (even Church ones) are already well aware that they are tricks, and I imagine they would feel cheated rather than valued by their new insight into the previously secret mechanics. No, if magic is performed at all then it must be performed competently and without exposure. But that does mean the use of deception. So how do I answer the objections? In fact I found it easier to answer than I’d expected. You see the vast majority of people (even members of the most conservative churches) practise ‘deceptive magic’ themselves, they just don’t realise it. For example how many parents have ever crept upstairs on Christmas Eve and delicately filled their little darling’s coloured stocking with nuts, satsumas, a cracker and a few other goodies? What parent is not filled with joy as they watch their enchanted little-ones ripping open the gift boxes they believe came from a magic-man with a white beard, who entered their house via the chimney, dropped off his gifts and then flew away on a sleigh pulled by reindeer? This is not deceptive magic! I can hear your thoughts. But I’m afraid it is. A magic trick is precisely what it says; a clever use of tricking (deceiving) people into thinking that magic has taken place. Magic tricks use misdirection, sleight of hand, clever wording, stories and a dose of play-acting to create the illusion of real magic. Some magicians call themselves actors playing the part of magicians. Make no mistake, for the young child on Christmas morning real magic has taken place. Gifts have appeared that were magically brought from the North Pole via a special reindeer delivery service. And who was it that caused this magic to occur? Well the children think it was Father Christmas but the grown ups know who it really was. They were the magicians who, behind the scene, created the magic that enchanted their children. They used storytelling (the tale of the Father Christmas myth), misdirection (the waiting until the child is asleep), sleight of hand (carefully removing the stocking and filling it with gifts), and a touch of play-acting (some folk even dress up as Santa in case a child is not fully asleep). Those who’ve played the tooth-fairy and actually lifted up the child’s pillow while she slept to switch a tooth for a coin, are perhaps even more qualified to call themselves magicians. Again, for the child, real magic has happened. A fairy came in and magically turned their tooth into a coin. What could be more magical than that? Yet what both these scenarios require (for the magic to work) is deception – the harmless white-lie of creating fantasy by play-acting. Very rarely do parents ever suffer heavy guilt-pangs when they talk about Father Christmas as if he were real. I believe he is real, not in a literal sense of course but in a mythological sense, and we keep that magical myth real and alive by telling the story and making the magic. Therefore my argument is that the vast majority of people – conservative Christians included – do sometimes unwittingly act as magicians to their children. Of course there are a tiny minority who choose not to entertain any notion of Father Christmas (or the equivalent) because they feel it is a harmful lie which distorts the true meaning of Christmas. Some even refer to him as Satan Claus. A few years ago I heard about a Christian Minister who accepted invitations to visit primary schools over the pre-Christmas period, but abused his position by telling all the kids the ‘truth’ about Santa. He let them in on the secret (exposed the method) and told them it was not a man in red but a mum or dad who left the presents. In so doing this Grinch in a dog collar stole these children’s Christmases. He robbed them of a precious gift that we usually lose at a much older age – the gift of enchantment. (close quote) Just thought this might be of interest as we all come in contact with this view from time to time. Blessings and peace, Mark |
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Dan Bernier Inner circle Canada 2298 Posts |
Do you have anything to say about Gospel magic Mark. It's seems to be all about magic to you, maybe that's why you get questioned.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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Kevin Ridgeway V.I.P. Indianapolis, IN & Phoenix, AZ 1832 Posts |
Possibly Dan...but to answer the question so as to help others that might be questioned here, I am paraphrasing what we share with others if the need arises.
There IS honest forms of deception. It is easy to point out an infinite amount of examples: -automated lights that turn on at night to make people(would be burglar) think someone is home -no look pass in basketball -play action pass in football -camouflage -make-up -a small present in a purposefully large box None of the above are sins of deception in nature. Don't forget sin is the heart, NOT the action in and of itself. Hope that helps, Kevin
Living Illusions
Ridgeway & Johnson Entertainment Inc Kevin Ridgeway & Kristen Johnson aka Lady Houdini The World's Premier Female Escape Artist www.LadyHoudini.com www.livingillusions.com |
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MagicBus Inner circle Kalamazoo, Michigan 2869 Posts |
Hard for me to relate to any of the initial comments- I myself (there I go talking about myself again) am in the Dr. John MacArthur school of theological thought rather than in the Carl Jung philosophy department. All this abstract mysticism McBride/Berger wonder stuff is not my point of reference- reading the Bible as literal Truth is my framework for my life (and programs). Have a great day all, the sun is actually shining today in Michigan!
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Spyder New user 76 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-03-09 09:56, Living Illusions wrote: Well put
"Do you like card tricks" he asked.
I said no. He did five -W. Somerset Maugham |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-03-09 08:33, Gospel Dan wrote: Does Mark have to mention the Gospel to make a valid point? I know this subject has come up many times before but it is a debate worth having and continually being reminded of. In short, I believe we must be aware of our brothers and sisters in Christ who are sensitive to this issue and try to be tolerant of them--ALL of them. The expectation of our brothers and sisters in Christ to turn around to expose all of our secrets after our show is, in my opinion, silly, absurd, and unethical. But who am I to judge them? They may be right. Who here has not come to a deeper understanding of the Bible over years of study? How do we know how closely they walk with Christ? Don’t get me wrong, I have come to a firm belief that God has called me to use this gift of magic to illustrate the truths of the Bible, and that magic is a great tool in doing so, and have been complimented by many in my approach. No, I don’t expose my secrets, but I do make it clear at every show I do that I don’t do real magic, these are tricks and illusions. That seems to appease anyone wishing to challenge me on my choices. Instead of worrying about the few who disagree, I try to spend that energy in my own walk with Christ.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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mark townsend Regular user 132 Posts |
Thanks all,
Only just able to re-check in. I do indeed preach a gospel message (in my own way) which is that Jesus spoke about a powerful and loving God who breaks down all the barriers we put up (often through 'religion,' i.e. the Temple structures of his day and indeed much of the religiosity of our day). I still find his counter-cultural parables and sayings pure magic, and his ability to embrace and show grace to those whom religion and politics (church and state) had given up on. I recently described him as 'having the incredible ability to enable broken men and women to come alive again and sparkle with God-light.' I love this Jesus. I just don't think we have to talk about him constantly in order to make him present. Our own life in him does that, and therefore our magic in him also does that. Blessings, Mark |
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Thom Bliss Loyal user Southern California 271 Posts |
Ken,
Quote:
Does Mark have to mention the Gospel to make a valid point? If Gospel Dan says it is so, then it must be so! Who are you to question him? Thom . |
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Ray Ouellette Regular user Ottawa, Canada 114 Posts |
Well put about "honest" forms of deception but there are also examples from the Bible. Taking from that thought and the post about sin being in the heart, I believe it is the INTENT of the deception that makes it okay or not. Our goal as Gospel illusionists is to entertain, cause laughter, and of course, to illustrate Biblical truths using illusions and sleight of hand. Similar to the way Jesus used parables to teach deep things of His kingdom.
Our intent is not to deceive people for personal gain or to manipulate them, but to (hopefully!) reinforce truths in a visual and startling manner. From the Bible we can see that Rahab certainly deceived those who came looking for the spies but her INTENT was correct and we see in Joshua 6:17 that she and her household were spared because of this action. That is how I respond to the very very rare occassions where someone raises this topic with me. Blessings, Ray
"Love and magic have a great deal in common. They enrich the soul, delight the heart. And they both take practice"
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Nick Astle New user Clinton, BC 97 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-27 12:52, Ray Ouellette wrote: Ray, that is a good thought on Rahab, I hadn't thought of it that way before. It's definitely a heart-issue, just like someone could tithe faithfully but do it with a wrong attitude. The person is wrong, even if the action is right. |
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tboehnlein Inner circle ohio 1787 Posts |
Hmmm, I applaud Mark's in depth response, mine would have been much shorter something to the effect of "I am an entertainer my friend, get a life". I guess I am losing patience in my old age.
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MagicBus Inner circle Kalamazoo, Michigan 2869 Posts |
A gentlemen showed me (after I did "The Guilt is Gone" effect)just last night a verse from Revelation condemning "magic." I told him- I don't do that! I do conjuring, otherwise known as "Surprises For The Eyes-es". That seemed to satisfy him, but you're right, one just wants to blurt out "Oh Brother!!!"
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
Has no one ever gone to Universal Studios or a similar place where you can "lift a car"? Has no one ever sat if front of a TV show or movie or stage play knowing the special effects were absolutely fake - but you genuinely did not want to see the wires becasue it would spoil the scene?
Then again, I have no room to talk. Some years ago, I confronted a man in the full bloom of my religious self-righteousness. Shortly thereafter I came across an Abbott's catalogue and found almost everything he did! I felt like a fool!! Yes - I use deception the same way they do in the theater - because that's what this is. And there is no more conflict in coupling that with a gospel message than in any of the many gospel movies made in the last 40 years. Ed |
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JohnWells Inner circle The Southern Wild 1791 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-03-09 12:53, MagicBus wrote: I think Mark's point of reference is the mystical theology of the ancient church that was the prevalent view a milennium before Calvin's heresies. |
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MagicBus Inner circle Kalamazoo, Michigan 2869 Posts |
The "mystical theology of the ancient church" was never the prevalent theology of "The Way", the apostle Paul, etc.. I/FCM would reject "mystical theology" to the degree it conflicts with Scripture (which predates everything). For a recent "popular" current/contemporary/easy to read author from our era, read Francis Chan's "Crazy Love" (over a million copies sold). Just where I am coming from personally, I do realize that is not the same view for sure shared by every other magician with an opinion regarding religious thought and practice. What is sad is that so many folks today give no thought to religion/faith/Truth whatsoever- it is taboo almost to discuss "religion" outside of a church setting (which is rare for many folks to even think of going into a church or to read a religious book of any sort). "God created man in his own image- and now we are trying to return the favor."
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drango New user Fishers, IN 9 Posts |
I have occasionally used the color changing thimbles as a trick to expose. It is simple and pretty widely known plus 2 thimbles can be easily thrown in the bag. Mostly I tell them that knowing how a trick is done takes all the fun out of it for me, them, and the audience. So I won't tell them any more.
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bigbrogeorge New user chicago burb's 3 Posts |
I make a living by performing for the "family faithful"...at my website http://www.comedymayhem.com you will find my thoughts on magic / deception and the church. I love seeing all the views posted within this topic.Reminds me of GALATIONS 3:28...I believe we are all different , but in HIM we are the same...and as for deception...poof I've disappeared !
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Dan Bernier Inner circle Canada 2298 Posts |
It comes down to not offending your brothers and sisters in the Lord. If we are insensitive to how others view magic, we will only enforce their negative perception of it. If our brothers and sisters should have a problem with it, then we should be first to not cause one of them to fall.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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Kevin Ridgeway V.I.P. Indianapolis, IN & Phoenix, AZ 1832 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-08-23 10:27, Gospel Dan wrote: And perhaps trying to educate them.
Living Illusions
Ridgeway & Johnson Entertainment Inc Kevin Ridgeway & Kristen Johnson aka Lady Houdini The World's Premier Female Escape Artist www.LadyHoudini.com www.livingillusions.com |
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Terry Owens Inner circle Ft. Wayne, Indiana 1707 Posts |
Those who claim to be "offended" do not understand what biblical offense is all about. Some us it to manipulate others...to offend means to cause to fall away. I've never met one person who has ever changed their mind about serving God by my doing magic to reach people for Christ...thousands over the years have come to Christ, but no one said...I quit because you do magic.
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