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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » From NDO to Zensational? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Loz
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Hi all,

Further to another thread discussing getting into Aronson stack, I realised that one of the features I use most with Aronson is the "any poker hand called for".

Since this only requires 13 cards to be in particular positions (the Zensational stack), I wonder if anyone has ever heard of a method to get into Zensational from New Deck Order (or at least get close to it)?

As mentioned in the aforementioned thread there are ALOT of possible deck arrangements and the likelihood of getting into a full deck stack using a relatively small number of cuts and shuffling procedures is EXTREMELY small.

However, since we are only dealing with 13 cards with the Zensational (granted they are distributed throughout the deck), this problem seems at least slightly more approachable.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Loz
Loz
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Just FYI, so far, my program has discovered a way to get 5 of the 13 cards from Zens in place from NDO using 2 cuts and 4 overhand shuffles. Not great yet, and its not utilising milk shuffles.

When I get the time I'll implement the milk which may/should help a lot.

I'll keep you posted!

Lawrence
Damon Zale
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You mean to have it at regular intervals (so it can be dealt without extra shuffle work) in the deck I presume not just get control of the 13 cards ? Latter would be easier with culling then 4 riffle shuffles etc

Anyway, what kind of an algorithm are you using for this or the "into aronson" problem? Sounds to me like constraint satisfaction problem - which are solvable sometimes via hill climbing algos....
Loz
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Hiya dimazales,

yes it can be cast as a constraint satisfaction problem etc. Basically a huge search space. The main problem is the 'shuffling' functions are actually very limited, so the amount of space you can search using anything that looks like a normal shuffle is extremely small. Managed to get 5 cards from the Zens stack in place after 5 overhands and 2 cuts. Milk shuffles may help but I'm now not so sure.

L
Damon Zale
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When you say in place you mean for example KC at 2 etc? Not just bring them together(which sounds simpler I think)?

Also Loz, I figure you aware of it , but just in case, there can be more then 1 Zensational (4 I figure).
Loz
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Hi dimazales,

By "in place", yes I mean say KC at 2. I think the only difference between bringing them together (in the right order) and having them in the correct deck position is a matter of a single cut (face up).

Regarding the second point, that was a major oversight by me! Yes I'll try the other permutations. Thanks for that!

Lawrence
Damon Zale
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No problem. This came to mind- there are even more possibilities if you think about it - some of the cards can be in different orders (say 9 8 7 6 5 is a straight but so is 8 9 7 6 5)..with a constraint that some are re-used for other hands... of course you might want to keep the starting cards of the hands the same as the ones you have memorized , but its still more then even 4:)

Oh and I keep having this feeling that this should be easy (more intuition which can be wrong:) ), in NDO you already have 4 sets of 7 of the needed cards right there set-up!
Loz
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All this keeps making me feel someone must have already worked it out! But no one has chimed in. Maybe a post in the gambling spot.....
Damon Zale
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Well , I have seen something even better :
Darwin Ortiz has an awesome poker demonstration routine ...he starts from shuffled deck even, not NDO (better in my opinion as spectator , like me might tie NDO with "royal flush is easy to get at"). Check out Shark Attack from Scams & Fantasies With Cards .
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » From NDO to Zensational? (0 Likes)
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