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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts 
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Quote:
On 2010-03-31 18:41, jmagic wrote: I'm sorry, but that is completely incorrect. It is only illegal to "deface US Money" if you do so with the intent to defraud. None of the actions you mention above are illegal unless you are taking those actions as part of a scheme to cheat someone. TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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jmagic Regular user 108 Posts
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You should check out the US code title 18, part 1, chapter 17 331 It says defacing is illegal. It says nothing about intent to defraud.
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Mb217 Inner circle 9616 Posts
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Man, this is like To Tell The Truth, remember that old show.
 I like all this technical stuff as you never quite know who's retort is truer, and you just know most people here never even heard of "US code title 18, part 1, chapter 17 331."
But I bet the precisioned Thomas Wayne has. Scary stuff.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb 
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-03-31 21:05, jmagic wrote: May YOU should check out that part of US Code... more carefully. There are two very different types of legal tender issued by the US Government - paper currency and metal coinage. Here is the language of Section 333 of that chapter, covering the potential criminal aspect of "defacing" paper currency: Quote:
"Whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or Intent under that statute is going to be very hard to prove, assuming you are not attempting some sort of fraud - such as cutting the corner indexes from a hundred-dollar bill and pasting them onto a one-dollar bill. It's unlikely your example of "Marking a bill with a pen " would qualify for such intent, and I don't see anyone doing time for possessing a Hundy 500 setup. However, the bulk of your concerns address metal coins: Quote:
On 2010-03-31 18:41, jmagic wrote: Coins - which is really the area that MOST magicians would be concerned with - are covered under a different section of the statute (Section 331, noted in your most recent post), which reads: Quote:
"Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, The Law is often very precisely written, and must therefore often be very precisely read. TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Strange Tasting Fish Sticks 1988 - 2013 The Big Brother is watching you 1095 Posts
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Regarding the coin looking like a morgan, it doesn't matter as long as it has copy stamped on it. Several promnient collectors companies, crank out tons of replica coins for collectors. One of them is National Collectors Mint. You often times find their ads on TV. In fact I have an old "gold" coin from them that has copy stamped on it. It is a replica exactly of one of the gold coins that used to be minted early in the 1800's to late 1700's.
http://nationalcollectorsmint.com/produc......&id=2526 http://nationalcollectorsmint.com/produc......id=10932 |
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DaddyDoodle Loyal user Northern Hemisphere 277 Posts
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I don't see any reference to intent to defraud. It does mention creation and it does mention mutilates and it does mention defacing and it does mention possession. Just my $0.02...
...however, the term "fraudulently" DOES imply, by definition, the intent to defraud (Google search term "define:fraudulently"). Here's the code: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc......00-.html Here's the text: Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.  Tally-ho! And Tuscarora too!
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DJG Inner circle 1349 Posts
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Alright after serveral calls to the FTC, Treasury, US Mint and a visit to the local Secret Service field office (can't be too careful
), I talked with Alex at the Secret Service and got this:
Per 18 USC Section 485 it is ONLY illegal is you intend to fraud or pass the coin(s) as legitimate currency. There is NOTHING wrong with selling, buying or using these coins for magic tricks and other demonstrations. I also called the FTC in regards to the Hobby Protection Act. Again it's OK...Just like any other prop (deck of cards, etc), this is a prop used in the normal course of business. Hope this helps! |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9616 Posts
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Sure does, thank you. It's just about what I said or implied as to intent when used by magicians - much ado about nothing. Glad you spoke with Agent Alex
and got the skinny on this a bit beyond the oft regurgitated rules & regulations meant mostly to combat the intent of bad guys. With all due respect, keep reading that stuff too much and you'll have everyone headed to the Big House under the sheer technicality of it all, sorta like the McCarthy era in his incessant hunt for communist amongst us, or something like that....
Oh well, now I can go back to not worrying about something not worth worrying about under a more proper balance of what's what. Thanks again EE and thanks to all for their views and perspectives, but beware, T. Wayne lurks with the slide rule in hand.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb
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DaddyDoodle Loyal user Northern Hemisphere 277 Posts
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I'm with Mb. It's more to the argument of interpretation. Yes, the letter says it's wrong; however, interpretation says the intent is to defraud. So, unless you go selling them on the Café as originals, then the Secret Service is pretty much unconcerned with you. Again, however, there's nothing saying another Joe McCarthy couldn't re-interpret it and start a witch hunt. I think I gave my $0.02 last post, so this will be my $0.03 worth.
Tally-ho! And Tuscarora too!
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Important information for people using and/or selling unmarked replicas of U.S. coins. » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (4 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Apr 1, 2010 12:20 am 
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