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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » ""Lucky" Oz Couple ... (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Mehtas
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Just saw it on yahoo news.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100407/tod-......197.html


I had a chuckle to see they were charged with "theft by finding."
MagiClyde
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I didn't know such a law existed. But it does serve them right. Once they discovered the cash, they should have tried to locate the owner or turn it into the police. Their actions after the discovery tells me that they knew what they were doing was wrong, if not at least immoral.

Maybe now the old man will learn to trust banks and even his wife a little more. All that money and no interest accumulated! Smile
Magic! The quicker picker-upper!
Chance
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How can that be? They bought the case through a legitimate retail venue. They stole nothing, or had any part in committing any sort of fraud. They didn't find a bag of cash on the street. The "guilty actions" they took after the fact were designed to circumvent tax laws.

This same sort of thing happens ALL THE TIME at yard sales and flea markets. I dare to say it's why people go to them in the first place! To find that secret windfall. The Picaso hidden behind the cheap calendar, or the diamond bracelet that no one knows is real. Which actions ARE a direct ruse, and a clear attempt to get something for nothing. Which is NOT what these folks did at all! So are flea market and yard sale shoppers subject to arrest too now? If so, there goes half the population!!!

The law usually states that once items are disposed of the last owner loses all rights or ownership and expectation to privacy. That's why the police can search your trash without a warrant. So how is this scenario any different?

It's not. Those folks committed no crime against the other family.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-04-08 10:05, Chance wrote:

The law usually states that once items are disposed of the last owner loses all rights or ownership and expectation to privacy. That's why the police can search your trash without a warrant. So how is this scenario any different?

It's not. Those folks committed no crime against the other family.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-nat......rjd.html

"The [police] spokeswoman said that when people come across such large sums of money they have to make a reasonable attempt to locate the owner."
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Mehtas
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Not so long ago a couple found lottery ticket here in UK. after most of the money was spent, the owner of the ticket came forward and claimed the ticket was hers.

The case went to court and the couple who found the ticket were charged with some sort of "theft"

The law really is an A**
Chance
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They did locate the owner: themselves.

There was no fraud. <--- notice the period.
gaddy
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I recently lost a 100$ chip in a casino. I just put it down for a second and it was gone. No one even made an attempt to return it to me even though I was standing right there...

Unfair, really...
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2010-04-08 17:05, Chance wrote:
They did locate the owner: themselves.

There was no fraud. <--- notice the period.


I guess the concept is, they should have realized that wasn't meant to be in the case and should have made some effort to find the original owners of the case to return the money.

I don't think it should be a law. But I don't understand the laws out there that can convict you if you witness a tragic act and take no action. (a'la the last episode of Steinfeld.)
"All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast!" - Oscar Wilde
Chance
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But how do we know that? Why wasn't the money "meant" to be there? Why couldn't a wealthy excentric have left it there on purpose?

The mind boggles.
LobowolfXXX
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Socialists.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-04-09 00:18, Chance wrote:

But how do we know that? Why wasn't the money "meant" to be there? Why couldn't a wealthy excentric have left it there on purpose?

Apparently, it was still the couple's responsibility to check it out. If it turned out to be an eccentric leaving free money, or if the true owners could not be found, presumably they could have kept it.

I must say, I'm surprised to see you railing about this. I thought you were more about people taking reasonable steps to look out for one another.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
gaddy
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Quote:
On 2010-04-09 00:41, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-04-09 00:18, Chance wrote:

But how do we know that? Why wasn't the money "meant" to be there? Why couldn't a wealthy excentric have left it there on purpose?

Apparently, it was still the couple's responsibility to check it out. If it turned out to be an eccentric leaving free money, or if the true owners could not be found, presumably they could have kept it.

I must say, I'm surprised to see you railing about this. I thought you were more about people taking reasonable steps to look out for one another.


Despite my own opinion that people should be morally responsible enough to make a reasonable attempt to return such a large amount of "found money", that law seems most unjust (to me).

On the other hand, their actions seem like a very deliberate, sketchy attempt to obfuscate the origin of their windfall, legal or not...
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
Destiny
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It happened in a different state to me and laws do vary a bit state to state but as I remember it if you find a large amount of money you are required to turn it over to the police - unless either someone comes forward and proves the money is legally theirs or the police establish the rightful owner - an effort they would only go to for a very large and newsworthy amount - the money is returned to the finder.
Chance
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@ Balducci-

This is not the same thing as we've been discussing in other threads. This case is a clear cut issue of personal responsibility.

Due to the (assumed/supposed) incompetence of one family, another family are now considered criminals. But they didn't commit any sort of fraud or malfeasance.

At this rate, the state might just as well charge the 1st family with "criminal stupidity" and keep all the money for itself! It would make just as much sense in my opinion.

The finders could just as easily have said, "Hey, there was a note with the cash that said 'Finders Keepers', so we did." What then?
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-04-09 08:48, Chance wrote:
@ Balducci-

This is not the same thing as we've been discussing in other threads. This case is a clear cut issue of personal responsibility.

Due to the (assumed/supposed) incompetence of one family, another family are now considered criminals. But they didn't commit any sort of fraud or malfeasance.

At this rate, the state might just as well charge the 1st family with "criminal stupidity" and keep all the money for itself! It would make just as much sense in my opinion.

I agree personal responsibility comes into it. But that applies to BOTH parties, the party that lost the money and the party that found it.

The finders did not know what the source of the money was. Perhaps it was money that originated from a drug deal or some other criminal enterprise (it was pretty suspicious that it was hidden in the lining of a suitcase after all), and it was their responsibility to investigate (and perhaps to notify the police, depending on the local law). It was also their responsibility to follow the law, whatever it was, whether or not they agreed with it.

If they are being marked as "criminals" now, it is only because they did not follow the law.

It should be reiterated that the couple's actions (putting the money into several different newly opened bank accounts) indicates that they knew they were doing something illegal.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Chance
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What then of flea markets or yard sales? What is "worse", doing what this family did, or haggling to pay $3 for something you know is actually worth $3500? Which one bears the image of fraud? Which one is accidental, and which one is intentional? I think I've made my point.

But have you ever seen the PBS show Antiques Roadshow? By your standard, that show is actually aiding and abetting criminals. But we know that's really not the case.

So I ask you: would it still be a crime if the case had been bought at a yard sale? If yes, then how is that any different from knowingly buying something nice at a far lower price, because you know something the owner doesn't and you're not being fully honest in reporting what you know before the deal is struck?
Nosher
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According to my legal mate, this is also known as larceny by finding and is on the books in the UK and to some extent in the USA (not all states).

The couple in question bought a suitcase, not a suitcase with money hidden in lining. That favourite, the reasonable person, should have known this money was not included in purchase price.

The couple could have kept the money, and made 'reasonable' attempts to find the owner of the property. If after a reasonable time (3-6 months it seems)if no one has come forward, you get to keep it. Apparently, no one can compel you to give up the money, and only the owner has a higher claim on it. The reason people hand in large sums/expensive objects to the police is that if the owner shows up in the future, courts are more likely to consider police efforts to find the owner 'reasonable' as opposed to say, the tiny advert you placed in the Pitcairn Island Pigeon Fancier's Gazette*.

What you can't do, and where the trouble starts if you appropriate the item belonging to someone else until all that reasonableness is over and done with. In this case, dividing up the money and squirrelling it away in multiple bank accounts is evidence of dishonest appropriation.

If someone sells you a Monet for $5, it's a commercial transaction and bad luck for them.

That's it - my eyes started to glaze over around here.

Cheers,
Nosher

*my choice of efforts Smile
Escapemaster-in-chief from all sorts of houdingplaces - Finnegans Wake
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-04-09 09:09, Chance wrote:

But have you ever seen the PBS show Antiques Roadshow? By your standard, that show is actually aiding and abetting criminals. But we know that's really not the case.

Not the same thing at all. Larceny by finding (or so I would expect) does not apply in a case when someone is selling something they rightfully own, and is knowingly selling it, as in the case of Antiques Roadshow. That is not what happened with the suitcase. The original rightful owner of the suitcase filled with cash did not sell it.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Chance
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Fine. Then also charge the shop owner for fencing stolen goods and/or as a co-conspirator in the "theft". It's a perfectly natural progression to the claims underlying the so-called crime. Because under this type of claim anyone at all who touched this suitcase should bear some measure of culpability, however small. But if such actions are never taken, then it is clear that the law over reaches in this type of situation and that the police are simply reaching for the lowest hanging fruit.

Sometimes unfair things happen in this world. Sometimes someone gains what might be considered an unfair advantage. But this does not mean that a crime has occured. Sometimes it has to be chalked up to plain bad luck. But what is absolutely wrong, is for the state to step in and abuse its unlimited power to prosecute such a scenario.
kcg5
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Gaddy-that was yours? ***, I put it on black to win and it did! What a night that was.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



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