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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » The JDG Fundamental Cups~ made by Donnie Buckley (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Donnie Buckley
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I haven't forgotten about you Frank... Has it been that long? Seems like just yesterday...

I can't answer your question Curtis, I no longer have a set of these cups and didn't test them for recommended ball sizes based upon any nesting or stacking.

Jamie's criteria for the cups didn't include any need to nest the cups and he is striving for an innocent looking heavy cup for the streets that accommodates a tennis ball.
Learn the form, but seek the formless. Learn it all, then forget it all. Learn the way, then find your own way. Rings-N-Things
Jamie D. Grant
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Hiya Gang!

Wow- there's such name great names posting on this thread- I'm honoured!!

I'm also, as many of you probably already know, a bit eccentric in my 'visions', lol. Once I get my mind on an idea, I can't sleep until it works...

And there was a couple of things about the first prototype that just needed a bit of tweaking. Thank goodness Donnie is so awesome! (and patient). So, here's the second (and final, I believe) version. Things that are better:

1) Better "Pea" visibility. This second design doesn't have that upper lip and is more like a beautiful flat (even though it's not) display. Way better visibility.

2) Better hold for the Final Load. Unlike the first design, this one is a true dimple and, as a result, whatever you put on top will go directly to the centre.

3) It looks "cleaner". This is where my eccentricity comes into play, lol. I love the fact that it has no bead and that the entire cup is very fluid! It just looks cleaner to me.

&

4) More room on top for the display of the three balls. There's a moment in the routine where I display all three at once and the first prototype couldn't accommodate that. This version displays them beautifully!

Image


Image


Image


Image


So, I firmly believe that The JDG Fundamentals now fit all my criteria- hurrah!

~ No Bead.
~ Sturdy for the street.
~ Fits a tennis ball.
~ Smooth lines.
~ Something I don't have to worry about dropping, throwing, falling, getting hit, run over, etc. (That's what the streets are for, after all!)
~ A plausible piece of apparatus that an Operator might use for a large crowd, while demonstrating the Three Shell Game.

There you have it- I'm excited! It's going to take Donnie a bit of time, I'm sure, to work out pricing etc. but we'll keep you guys posted!

All my best,

jamie
TRICK OF THE YEAR: Industrial Revelation, BOOK OF THE YEAR: The Approach, The AIP Bottle, and my new book Scenic 52, can all be found over here: SendWonder.com
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Krazyjay
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The design in the picture looks like it would make for a good Chop cup. I would buy it if Donnie could chop one of the cups. Do you here me Donnie.

Jeremy
Bill Palmer
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That is a very nice looking cups. I think it will be a success.
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Lawrence O
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Bill,

you know the C&Bs more than anyone else. Most performers try and present Dai Vernon's routine which includes an important stacking phase. So does the Frank Garcia's routine and, going up in time so did most routines all the way up to Hocus Pocus Jr.

If the descriptions of Alciphron or Seneca's description in his letter to Lucillius and the Scot's description of John Cautares technique in The Discovery of Witchcraft (and therefore Rid) does not suggest stacking "candlesticks", the number of non stacking routines is very small. Ron Vergilio published one about twenty years ago, but it didn't receive the response it deserved. Michael Skinner also did a routine with tea cups but he had a small shaggy stacking phase (as Bob Read did)

Let's hope that these nice looking cups will initiate a new search in C&Bs routines and induce a few of us to work at non stacking routines. The number of potential effects does exist to imagine many different routines but I'm fearing the fact that habit is a second nature.

Balls can magically appear under the cup.
Balls can magically spread from one cup into the others; They can do it at once or progressively
Conversely balls can meet under one cup at once or progressively under one cup.
They can travel from the performer's body (hand, wand or other body parts llike jacket lapel, pocket...) or to the performer's body
They can also magically leave the cups to get to a spectator's body (sponge balls in the hand) which is not necessarily the hand (check Eddie Joseph's the Art of body loading)
Since Tommy Wonder they can also travel from the performer's body to the top of the cups in full view (see Michael Ammar) or their number can increase (Dominique Duvivier)
It is also possible to perform solid through solid effects with a ball going down (or up) through the bottom of a cup (an effect for which I worked a smoother method than Senor Mardo's pounding)
A few routines in the last 50 years have also made use of multicolor balls which open a few new effects like Kent Gunn's outstanding routine.

Real creativity makes use of weaknesses as strength and performers should not get discouraged to consider these cups for uneasy access to already fully written routines

Let's wish the best to these new cups and suggest performers that these offer an opportunity and a challenge to our capacity of reconsidering the ways to present our beloved classic
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
cupsandballsmagic
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An excelent point and let's not forget that any advances made with such cups will also strengthen our impromptu skills as anything that can be done with them can be incorporated into impromptu routines where the ability to stack cups is not important.
pabloinus
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I liked the original cups better, the small saddle and the shape of the cups, but these are Jamie's cups and he in entitled to have his cups the way he wants Smile

These are great cups either way

Pablo
Bill Palmer
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I have always felt that the description of the cups and balls in Scot was the proof needed that Scot was not a magician. I don't believe the candlesticks were actually ever a major part of the cups and balls. I think Scot's report that emphasizes the use of candlesticks as much as it does was a recollection of an isolated, perhaps impromptu, performance that he witnessed at a pub or at dinner. After The Art of Jugling the reports of the use of candlesticks seem to disappear. However, he does state that saltcellar covers are the best to be used for the cups and balls.

If you compare our cups to the saltcellar covers to which he refers, it is easy to see how he might, as a non-magician, see that our cups, at least those from the 16th century, did resemble saltcellar covers more than they resembled a tankard one would find at a pub.

Scot's description of the performance is really quite vague. However, when we get to Hocus Pocus, Junior, which was published only 50 years later, we have a very solid, definite cups and balls routine.

There is a lot that needs to be studied about the "pre-Hocus Pocus Junior" cups and balls, and it has only been inadequately covered in the research that we have. Since most of our information comes from paintings, and new paintings are being discovered on a fairly regular basis, maybe it's time for someone to see if there is some way to visit some of the European galleries, especially the one in Offenbach, to see what can be learned from these graphics.

Hopefully, the Bob Read book will appear soon.

I should add that Vernon did have a routine that omitted the stacking phase. Personally, I prefer a cup that can stack. However, it's not the be-all, end-all of the cups and balls.

Jamie's routine actually harks back to some of the earliest concepts, when the cups and balls bore more resemblance to the shell game than it does today.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
panlives
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Hi,
Any update on when these cups might be retailed?
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"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
Jamie D. Grant
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Quote:
On 2010-05-17 09:19, panlives wrote:
Hi,
Any update on when these cups might be retailed?


Thanks for the inquiry! I know Donnie is working like crazy so we'll have to wait and see, I reckon!

All my best,

:jdg
http://www.cardsinabottle.com
TRICK OF THE YEAR: Industrial Revelation, BOOK OF THE YEAR: The Approach, The AIP Bottle, and my new book Scenic 52, can all be found over here: SendWonder.com
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panlives
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Thank you.
Tell him he has at least one customer here in Toronto.
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
Donnie Buckley
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Congratulations Jamie, your unique idea has been swiped already Jamie and we haven't even sold one cup! That only happens to the best ideas!

For comparison and preserved for posterity, here are the images of the new "variations" of Riser cups that James Riser released on 5/22. I wonder how much "research" he did on these:
Image

James Riser's Plain Old Midis.

Image

James Risers Innocent Midis without a mouth bead.

Today these images can be seen in all their ignominous glory at: http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/JamesRiserMagic.html

I've never met, nor spoken to, nor corresponded with James Riser, so I don't think it's personal. I think it's probably just the error of a lack of imagination and conscience on his behalf that leads him to duplicate prototypes that we have openly discussed here in a public forum.
Next time, I will not be so open about what we are developing. There are trolls in this place that will eat your children.

Welcome to the wonderful world of cups and balls Jamie! At least your Fundamental Cups will include the routine and handling that they were designed for. Plus, I like your design better. IMO, the saddle on the Fundamental Cups is superior.
Learn the form, but seek the formless. Learn it all, then forget it all. Learn the way, then find your own way. Rings-N-Things
djkuttdecks
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WOW, now THAT is funny. I wouldn't sweat it though. My understanding is its not exactly easy to order anything from Riser anyhow. If I gotta take an aptitude to purchase something from you, then my money will stay right where it is.
Bill Palmer
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I have an increasingly difficult time considering Jim Riser a serious designer of cups. He has put so much material out without a real understanding of why the cups are used in certain ways. A prime example are his aluminum Ramsay cups. One of the main points of Ramsay's cups and balls routine was that he used cups that were made from things that people threw away -- old ice cream cups.

I have a set of Riser's Ramsay cups. They are nice cups, but they miss the point.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Donnie Buckley
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Oh, he's going to get the point...
Learn the form, but seek the formless. Learn it all, then forget it all. Learn the way, then find your own way. Rings-N-Things
djkuttdecks
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I just want someone to explain to me why the heck I need to be "pre-approved" to give him money? This ain't no bank loan! What kind of pomposity is needed to think that this is appropriate and yet still "borrow" cup ideas from others which I am sure was not "pre-approved"?
cupsandballsmagic
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Oh come on... Don't those beautiful lamps make up for it?
Mad Jake
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He'll probally tell you "HE" had the idea 2 years ago.
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
Donnie Buckley
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LOL, that's a good one Jake!
And yes Bri, those lamps do tell us something about the demise of his muse don't they...
In the words of Morrissey, "I've heard of this happening in other people's lives and now it's happening in mine."
I haven't heard from Jamie yet, but if I know Jamie, this is going to roll right off his back. Rarely do you meet a fun-loving, easy-going guy as genuine as Jamie - it's a shame that Riser's research didn't tell him that he would be stepping on a product that was designed for someone as "good" as Jamie D Grant.

Jamie deserves this even less than I do!
Learn the form, but seek the formless. Learn it all, then forget it all. Learn the way, then find your own way. Rings-N-Things
panlives
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It's the JDG Fundamentals for me, all the way.
Period.
Make it three periods for the little spheres we love so well.
...
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
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