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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You Oughta Be In Pictures » » My Presentation for The Observation Test (Trost) - Video (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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loyaleagle
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Quote:
On 2010-04-15 01:01, RS1963 wrote:
I have to agree with Andrew, Truesoldier,Uli,

It also seems that loyaleagle wasn't looking for a critique that didn't say how good he was. Saying someone is good just to make someone happy isn't a critique, by any stretch of the imagination. If your going to put up a video on here or anywhere else you have to be ready for the honest impressions of the vid from those that aren't afraid to speak the honest truth. If you can't handle that. Then show the vids to only family and close friends that are going to pat you on the back no matter what. Otherwise take the advise given. Change the bad parts and listen and learn from what others tell you.

I couldn't disagree with you more, RS. The feedback I've gotten on this thread has been very helpful in not only tweaking the handling, but also in the idea of the presentation at large. Since this was my first go at a color-changing deck I just wanted to see how my ideas flowed.

That being said, I always try to give as good as I get. Just because I welcome comments, that doesn't mean I won't try to defend my position. If I simply caved in to every suggestion (even the ones from good magicians on here), I might be doing good magic, but I wouldn't be doing MY magic. Sorry if my rebuttals got a bit heated...I admit I kind of fell in love with the IDEA of my first presentation...

Thanks to Bill, btw, that last post cleared up what you were saying. I've since fixed the display and it's been much more deceptive!

Due to the discussion and discourse, I have a second "draft" of the effect working in my mind. When I get a chance, I will post another video...

Essentially this is shaping up to be the opener in a small set of "psych" themed tricks. I'm thinking the intro will be slightly shorter, depending on the crowd. I don't think I want to try to pass off these effects as ACTUAL psych tricks (like maybe a mentalist would), but as magic that seems to play with the mind. So the full deck color inversion will still come across as a magical change, but leave the audience with an out that is psychological. I've never done this before, but people always seem to like it when I talk about psych phenomenon (real or not). I'm still not married to this new idea, so I welcome thoughts on the plot...

I'm not quite sure what else I'd like to put into the set, but it would be best if it could need only a standard deck.
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RS1963
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It doesn't make any sense to blow off others good ideas to make something much better and go ahead and do what is seen as so so or perhaps not that good at all. Just because you like something doesn't mean it should be done that way.
Doesn't sound like you are very open to ideas to me I'm sure the others may doubt that you are as well.
Bill Hallahan
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RS1963, it doesn't follow that because someone doesn't take any specific advice that they aren't open to advice. Sometimes people just disagree.

However, in this case, loyaleagle clearly has changed his routine based upon advice given here. I'm quite sure his next video will show a somewhat different handling for the initial phase of the routine.

To get this back on topic; The three swing cuts happen, and then the fourth time the cards are placed underneath to reassemble the deck. It's a 4 count, with the 4th count having the right hand cards go underneath the left hand cards.

Also, make sure your hands are as relaxed as they can be when you practice and perform. Unjustified muscle tension gives a clue that something fishy is going on, and that can weaken the magic, even if the audience never sees any cause for the effect.

By the way, you'll notice the discrepancy in the handling in the first phase. For that reason, part of the method for routine can be reverse engineered if on seen repeatedly on video. I suspect the rest of the method is generally deceptive even upon repeated viewing.

I really like that routine. I look forward to the next video.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
loyaleagle
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VIDEO UPDATE!!!!

Ok, hopefully this handling and presentation will put many of the objections to rest. I have made a new video that neuters the gorilla video objections by keeping the principle, but eliminating the spoiler. The display is hopefully more deceptive (though there is a bit of that obnoxious camera shine that keeps the colors from standing out as much). Also, I tried to make the trick more upbeat and fun for the participant...."you've been had, but in a good way."

Here's the link:
http://vimeo.com/10970974
Password: nicktrost

Once again, this is still unpolished so please do not share this outside the fraternity (though the odd girlfriend/boyfriend or parent is understandable).
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magicPhred
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Much better. Thanks for posting this
Bill Hallahan
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This is much, much, better.

I have minor points still, but they're no big deal, the routine will probably play great as is. Some of what I write below will sound wishy-washy, but it's only because I really don't know. I'll let you decide if the following comments have any merit.

Don't say, "A red deck of cards, right?" This will make a spectator question what they implicitly know before you do the revelation. Never ask if anything that is false is true. However, I expect you did that because you had no audience. And, even if you would say that with an audience, I might be wrong anyway; perhaps it's so bold that nobody would question that the deck is really red. It just seems risky to me.

I didn't understand why you used a Hindu shuffle to put the card in the middle of the deck. In the original routine, the card is just placed on the face-up deck and cut to the middle. It doesn't add anything to the routine to use the shuffle there. However, that's a really picayune point. I'm just a minimalist, or at least I want to be one; I've recorded some of my routines and I have plenty of fat to cut out of some of them.

There is one thing that I'm almost certain doesn't matter, and that is whether the deck is red or blue. You reversed the colors used in the published routine. I'm curious if this was a conscious decision for a reason, or it was just that you had a blue deck handy?

Since I posted above, I thought about why Nick Trost explicitly mentioned the backs once in his patter, and I realized that it might be possible for a spectator who was paying too much attention to the performer to miss the color of the flashed cards. That would ruin the effect of the routine. He might have added that comment because of a bad experience once. It's something to think about. It does sound unnatural to me to mention the backs though. I haven't performed this enough to have a strong opinion, and I expect Nick Trost performed it a lot. Keep that in mind!

I think the video is great now.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
loyaleagle
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@Bill

Yes, your assumption is right. With an audience present I'd hope that they would supply in their own words the things I said. I do think the recap is important, though, because if I just flip it over, there is some chance that they spectators will think that nothing changed because they will convince themselves they had the colors reversed. I want the expectation to be solidified.

I got the Hindu idea from Trost actually. He has it as a note in the text. Whenever I see a trick for the first time, I don't feel compelled to do it unless it fooled or entertained me. If I had seen this one with nothing more than cuts, I wouldn't have been fooled because so many self-workers rely on cyclic or false cuts. I think a lot of card-interested people know this too. If those same kinds of people see a Hindu, I think that at least a few of them will be lost because it's not cyclic.

Also, I've considered having the spectator place the card in the middle position as I hold the two packets apart. I'll probably try a variation until I find the right fit.

Ya know, there are instances where the color of the cards used is important in a mixed-back deck. For instance, a number of effects imply that you've "heated up the card" so you want the selection to turn red. Personally I've done red and blue stranger cards in blue and red decks, respectively, and never noticed a difference if the patter didn't require it. I think the thing to think about here is the final revelation. The first phase of the trick only needs two different colors. The second phase needs one card to stand out from many. I feel like a red card does this pretty well among darker blue cards.

While Trost did mention that line (which is why I said it in my first video), I do tend to agree with you that it's not the best line out there. I feel that the red box and emphasis of the blue back being different will lay enough foundation already. Again, I still plan to do the recap because it allows the group to confirm what they saw and gets everyone on the same page (so they can react the same way).

Do you like the "magician hardly notices the magic change but congratulates you on naming the right card" thing at the end? I wanted to kind of finish with a touch of humor so it doesn't come off as a "gotcha" trick.

Thanks for all the feedback everybody!
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Bill Hallahan
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Loyaleagle wrote:
Quote:
I got the Hindu idea from Trost actually. He has it as a note in the text.

Nick Trost was referring to replacing the early swing-cut displays with the Hindu shuffle, not the final cut. He wrote:
Quote:
Notes: If you prefer, the Hindu Shuffle can be substituted for the series of swing cuts.


loyaleagle wrote:
Quote:
If I had seen this one with nothing more than cuts, I wouldn't have been fooled because so many self-workers rely on cyclic or false cuts.

Except, you only show the faces when you do the Hindu shuffle, so it proves nothing relevant to the trick's outcome.

If you think the Hindu is more effective, then I think you should replace the swing-cut display with a Hindu shuffle, not the final cut. It's only necessary to show the color of the cards a few times, and in this case, you aren't really proving anything with your actions, rather you're letting the color of the card box and the few flashes of the backs let the audience's imagination lead them to a false conclusion. Later, I think the single wrong-colored card also serves as misdirection as to the method.

loyaleagle wrote:
Quote:
Do you like the "magician hardly notices the magic change but congratulates you on naming the right card" thing at the end? I wanted to kind of finish with a touch of humor so it doesn't come off as a "gotcha" trick.

I like the line.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
Ben Train
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Two quick things.

First, bring back the presentation regarding the gorilla video. It's true that some may have not seen it but you gain a wonderful hook- the trick has meaning and relevance. As it stands now I have some 'jerk' lecturing me on my inability to 'observe' things. Blech.

Second, move the card box of screen but allow the flap to remain seen. This will allow you to have the box change color with very little work (think about it). It doesn't need to be pointed out, but I think it'd be nice, at the end, if you put the blue deck back in a blue box. Trippy.

Love,
Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.

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loyaleagle
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Quote:
On 2010-04-18 18:34, Ben Train wrote:
Two quick things.

First, bring back the presentation regarding the gorilla video. It's true that some may have not seen it but you gain a wonderful hook- the trick has meaning and relevance. As it stands now I have some 'dick' lecturing me my inability to 'observe' things. Blech.

Second, move the card box of screen but allow the flap to remain seen. This will allow you to have the box change color with very little work (think about it). It doesn't need to be pointed out, but I think it'd be nice, at the end, if you put the blue deck back in a blue box. Trippy.

Love,
Ben

On your first point, yes, that was pretty much my reasoning for using the example. That being said...I think most magic we do involves us being "dicks" and telling people they're not aware of the magical world around them. The objective is just to make them forget that point in light of the overall effect Smile

I will probably keep the gorilla thing around for people who I think would enjoy that more than the pure principle.

I think I would do the latter...if I had any interest in making a video for the public to view. As it stands, I only made these videos to get some feedback from The Café. In "real life" the card box will probably be hanging around my work surface or potentially in a card box-sized pocket. I don't actually intend for them to think they made a mistake...I want them to realize that "magic" happened (or something that looks like it) and that what I'm saying is entertaining but also a load of bull (though if they realize that last part AFTER the trick is finished, but they were fooled for a short while, that would be ideal!).

Thanks for watching/posting!
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leondo
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I LOVE this effect and the book from which it came!
I'm not even sure words are needed. Everything is obvious...beginning to end.
Why does EVERYTHING need explaining?
All it needs is presentention and the "right" music.
Disclaimer.....I've never done this professionally.
Ted L
loyaleagle
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Quote:
On 2010-04-18 22:05, leondo wrote:
I LOVE this effect and the book from which it came!
I'm not even sure words are needed. Everything is obvious...beginning to end.
Why does EVERYTHING need explaining?
All it needs is presentention and the "right" music.
Disclaimer.....I've never done this professionally.
Ted L

I totally agree that that would be feasible...if the magician in question (ME) wasn't such a garrulous person! If I stayed quiet for more than a minute they'd probably think I was hiding cards in my mouth!
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Ben Train
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Quote:
On 2010-04-18 18:54, loyaleagle wrote:
I think most magic we do involves us being "dicks" and telling people they're not aware of the magical world around them.


You and I have very different views on what our objectives are!

If you are sharing something special with them, something interesting, and something welcomed and, hopefully, invited, then it's hard to see how we could be a dick (without trying hard). The problem is that we often take advantage of their casual interest and then 'hit them' with the surprise "observation test"- which DOES feel kinda dicky.

The nice thing about the Gorilla video was that it was a) authentic, b)interesting at the end and c)fun in application. Since your trick is like a card-version of that, aim to incorporate those components.

1. Is it interesting? Not really- we know it's ********. Why?
2. Because we know it isn't authentic. But it can be- and you're close.
3. Is the application, or test, fun? No, not really. It's watching you handle a deck. Check this out- let THEM do it! They can, right, so why not (or pick something else that makes it interesting, and stimulating)? **** emulating Trost- aim to be better. It's possible.

I dunno. Maybe I'm talking out of my ass.

Ben
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Ben Train
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I wish I could have edited that.

First: the first sentence (about objectives) was meant half-jokingly.

Second: The astrixed out word after "is it interesting?" was "baloney".

Love,
Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.

Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for all sorts of FREE VIRTUAL PROGRAMMING for magicians!
loyaleagle
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Quote:
On 2010-04-19 01:09, Ben Train wrote:
I wish I could have edited that.

First: the first sentence (about objectives) was meant half-jokingly.

Second: The astrixed out word after "is it interesting?" was "baloney".

Love,
Ben

Lol, no worries Ben. We could make a deli platter with all the baloney we toss around on here Smile
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ekgdoc
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I recently used this as an opener and it went well, though I definitely learned from the experience. I appreciate and will use many of the comments that have been given. I did regret specifying that "the backs are all the same" as I think that led one person (a true genius) to realize what I was doing. I also regretted telling the spectators that they were not paying attention (as per the Trost patter). Why make the specs feel bad? I think next time I'll tell the specs that they have excellent observation skills and when I turn over to reveal the color change, I will act startled/confused. "What the heck just happened? Didn't you just place a blue backed 8 in a red backed deck? That was weird."

Here are a couple of thoughts that may not have been mentioned by others. Instead of doing this as an opener, you could do it as a second trick. The first trick, a quickie, could be something like Card Warp (or maybe a TnR card) using red backed cards that are destroyed. This would would serve to lock in the color of the cards without directing attention to it. I would also point out that in The Observation Test it is easy to retain a stack on top. Since miracles can be done using stacks, a follow up trick could use this to advantage.

David M
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I liked the first video better. I was interested in what you were saying and it just seemed more magical and entertaining to me. The second was a bit boring to me. I had never seen the gorilla video and it did not upset me that you spoke about it....I thought it was an intresting story and it made me want to search out the video. Just my thoughts for what it's worth...Great job in both though!!

Mike
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