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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
I answered that - if the information revealed leads to a more amazing or magical experience for the audience. That's not the exact phrasing, but I'm sure you can find it in my reply. That's the line I draw. What is yours?
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Not sure, but I am pretty sure my line would not be drawn solely based upon the amazement or magical experience of the audience. I just don't believe the end always justifies the means. If the "information revealed" is disbelieved, or forgotten, by the audience as the result of the performance, then perhaps that is a good place to draw the line since the exposure is negated. If another magician could get away with doing the original silk to egg a week after Mark Wilson exposed it then maybe it was never exposure in the first place.
As I said, I think the line is changing, and what seemed like exposure a decade ago is not even regarded as such today. Still, I feel if the thing being exposed is done so blatantly and clearly, such that the average spectator will feel able to shout out "I know how you did that" when seen again, then it is exposure, regardless of how magical. It is a tough line to draw, for sure, but that is where I think I would draw it. Jim Quote:
On 2010-04-15 16:33, Lemniscate wrote: Lem- Until we get that tote board, here is my vote attached to yours... Do P&T expose? No/Yes Is exposure bad? Yes/Yes Is downloading stuff you didn't purchase/obtain "rightfully" bad? Yes/Yes Is selling something you created yourself bad? No/No Regarding my transformation, Truthteller did me in. Not exactly a chop cup yet, but I have started to attract metallic objects... Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Jim, what do you believe penn and teller have exposed that lay people wouild see again and think, I know how they did that?
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
I appreciate your question, Truthteller, but really there is no point in a serious answer. Everyone has their opinion and it does not change. I will just say that when I see them treat "Shadows" as they do the illusions created by others, then I will become a P&T fan...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-04-17 20:26, mandarin wrote: In other words, you can't name anything they've actually "exposed?" |
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mumford Special user 652 Posts |
Like truthteller said, nothing is ever exposed that someone might see again and think, I know how they did that. Most of the "exposed methods" like the Blast Off bit don't use actual magian methods for that type trick. And when they do the clear cups & balls it is just as amazing to watch as if the cups were opaque. I think their exposures are more an occasional theme and definitely not a Masked Magician sort of thing, or like the countless kid magican exposures on youtube. Penn & Teller do more good for magic than most anyone out there.
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
What I love is how some scream that P&T exposed the deceptive base in Blast Off. If that is what they think a deceptive base is, then maybe they need to study a little more. The thing is though, I've seen some magicians use bases just like that in their acts. It seems they are fooling themselves more than the audience.
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-04-17 20:47, Micheal Leath wrote: You can keep your "other words", I said exactly what I wanted to say, thank you.
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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mumford Special user 652 Posts |
Mandarin, that was NOT an exposure. In fact, every laymen who sees that is amazed. Plus what YOU think is an exposure is part of what fools audiences. Anyone who watches a thin model sawing - that would ordinarily find a thin model sawing wildly amazing, still would. Perhaps someday you will see things from the POV of an audience. What's great about that bit is the fact that the audience feels like they are given a peek backstage and they still are surprised and amazed.
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Well, mumford, we disagree... but I do understand and respect your point of view...
Regards, Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Can't access youtube from road. Is that a p and t clip?
I promise not to argue with you on the tricks you think they exposed. I'm just curious which ones YOU think they cross the line with. We might disagree. But that's cool |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-04-15 15:39, truthteller wrote: Actually, no. The Sake transfer was created by the great Japanese Magician, Tenkai Ishida Brad, you should know that.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
? Sake Transfer?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Brad,
It is the America's got talent sawing type clip, but their studio version. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Sorry guys . "Fake" transfer. My thuimnbs are too fat, apparently!
Thanks tom. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
In the P&T sawing they "expose" in the same way Vernon "exposed" a fake transfer for the cups and balls. Where is the outrage for him?
Think about it he EXPOSES A FAKE TRANSFEER right? Is what they do different in the sawing? NO! So all I ask is that if you have this outrage, and you use a "fake explination" that may not be so "fake" you need to first look in the mirror for your troubles. Vernon exposes the French Drop as well as adding the ball behind the cup! Where is your outrage? I should imagine more magicians do the cups and balls than do the thin model sawing right? So if you want to be outraged, at least be consistant. Sorry just read Brads post, but here is a clip of it. Great minds and all. For that matter many a magic trick absolutely depends on the ruse of a fake explination or outright explaining another method you are not using. Many 3 shell routines, 3 card monte routines and so forth.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-04-19 13:21, truthteller wrote: Whew! Now I can put away all those japanese magic books I was looking thru...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-04-19 14:10, Dannydoyle wrote: I don't think hyperbole adds anything useful to this discussion. If anything I wrote can be considered "outrage" I certainly apologize. I must be getting thick-skinned, because I failed to notice it by others as well. I was rather thinking for once I was enjoying a rather reasoned and courteous discussion. One of us is off base... Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I am talking about why Penn and Teller are villified (and they are) for the sawing, when in reality many others have done much more in the way of "exposure".
Have you ever thought for a second of Dai Vernon as "exposing" anything? If not, then why Penn and Teller? Where is the difference? I fail to see one. Vernon enhances the trick (I would imagine) with showing the French Drop. They do nothing different. If you can articulate a difference I would love to see it. If you can not, then either they are not so bad, or Vernon is just as bad. The choice is clear. It can not be one way for some performers, and another way for others. Do you see what I am getting at?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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msmaster Special user 522 Posts |
Mandarin, outraged or not, there really is no point in trying to change your mind. Think what you want. I think most rational observers would agree P&T do, and have done, more good for magic and it's perception in the public eye over the last 30 years than just about anyone else. If the feathers of a few Mandarins get ruffled, and that's the price - so be it.
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