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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Preserving languages a waste of time? Preserving English? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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critter
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Quote:
On 2010-04-26 22:41, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-04-26 22:28, critter wrote:
It's important to anthropologists.


More thesis littering the halls of denial - as covered in the OP and article cited.


Except that archeology and history are both branches of anthropology.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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kcg5
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On 2010-04-25 21:49, Davit Sicseek wrote:
I don't mind being addressed by name. No need to diffuse your dissatisfaction with 'folks'.

As it happens, when I presented a topic for discussion, I was a little taken aback by your refusal in engage with the material I had posted and your attempt to redefine the starting point of the discussion by suggesting I hunt down a book. That being said, I was willing to play along and consulted Amazon (UK) which didn't list the book. As a second shot I looked for a wikipedia entry on the story - no luck. I also searched for the full author and title and didn't see it readily available on the first page of results. How much longer should I search? How much money should I spend on materials to enjoy your company in this light discussion?

I put it to you that my time (and that of the other readers of this thread) could be much enhanced by you participating in the discussion in a more accomodating fashion.




Thank you for saying what many where thinking but didn't take the time to write. Jonathan, you might fall off that horse someday, ride near cushions.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
Jonathan Townsend
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KCG, kindly look at the just above yours, keeping in mind that the original poster and the article he cited asked specifically about the value of preserving languages outside of academic interests.

I'm not on a horse. Only two feet here. It's just that I'm not crawling - I stand on two feet. I learned to read and explore. I cite my sources and don't take my position or opinion as set in stone. But I do expect others to be able to explain their reasoning behind their statements and at least give some consideration to an opinion or position they have not yet explored.

If I seem to see further than you or move a little faster, perhaps it's that my statements are informed by a small bookcase of books I've read - some of which are cited in the posts? So, what's your real position on the matter?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
critter
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But the academic watchamadoodles are important to non-academics. If it weren't for dead languages then how would Indiana Jones get anything done?
Just about everyone is an anthropologist anyway. No, strike the just about part.
Also, I think the article pretty much anwers the question by mentioning Shakespearian English as basically a dead language.
Do individual languages matter? Hez to the yizzah they do! Think of the nuances of a Chinese language film that are lost in a dubbed English version.
I can't even agree with the basic premise of the article, "no language is any better than any other one," Bull! Some languages are better for certain things than others.
French is usually better for hitting on chicks than German.
Sanskrit seems to have an advantage when one wants to chant.
Ebonics is best if you really don't want the job you are interviewing for.
Jive makes everyone cool.
Most of these aren't dead languages, but they are all better than the others for the situations mentioned, which negates the entire premise of the article.
I don't have any use for citations yet. The points expressed are all my own and not those of Googipedajeeves.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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tommy
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This is the Self Preservation Society

Ain’t ya seen the Italian Job?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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I was under the impression that we are not asking about abandoning ones current language but instead whether it's a concern to those who follow whether or not they will be using the same language as we do. We read modern English translations of Robert-Houdin and I hope to be reading a modern English translation of Hofzinser in the near future. Neither wrote in a modern version of the language native to where they were writing just as we don't speak Elizabethan English or the English of Chaucer's time.

I understand and happen to agree about one's current languages having utility and the example of Sanskrit as integral to some chant/meditation practices suggests that it will continue to serve - and so not require any special effort to preserve.

What's your case for special efforts to preserve language beyond academia?
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tommy
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Hey! If you want to see this seventh card you're gonna stop speakin' ****in' Sputnick.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Jonathan Townsend
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Folks I've argued FOR language preservation indirectly by way of the theses presented in some books - and also with that not to Sanskrit.

What is lost with a language?
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Josh Chaikin
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Identity.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2010-04-27 21:02, Josh Chaikin wrote:
Identity.


Josh, would you elaborate upon your answer there. How specifically do you link identity to language?
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Davit Sicseek
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Identity is defined at the individual level, so pinning it down in any tangible way is going to be a difficult tast. That problem aside, I'm not sure introducing identiy adds anything to the discussion.

I feel the same way about identity as I do about language. Identities will die and flourish. If a language dies, the blood descendents of the dying language speakers won't have a problem. They haven't lost the language element of THEIR identity. Maybe their grandparents will be unhappy because their identity doesn't match their grandchildrens in regards to language.
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tommy
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I think I can speak for most people.
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Davit Sicseek
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^I think you should make concentrate on speaking for yourself. 5 posts in and still waiting for an insight, a position, an arguement...
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tommy
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I think you should shut up. Smile
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critter
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Quote:
On 2010-04-27 19:45, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
We read modern English translations of Robert-Houdin and I hope to be reading a modern English translation of Hofzinser in the near future.


But if there were no French then how would we know if something were lost in translation?
How many different ways has Sun Tzu, The Dhammapadda, The Bible, etc. been reinterpreted and diminished by translation?
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tommy
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If you want your own identity why don’t get your own language instead of using ours?

What have you got that is not ours? Hot Dogs.

:)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
critter
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Then again, wasn't most of the content of Robert-Houdin's memoirs made up anyway?
;)
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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spatlind
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Quote:
On 2010-04-27 21:03, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-04-27 21:02, Josh Chaikin wrote:
Identity.


Josh, would you elaborate upon your answer there. How specifically do you link identity to language?


I'm really not sure what you believe, or how a national language is not part of one's identity. Perhaps because yours is not your own! Perhaps I shouldn't try to articulate this after a few beers!

I am Irish, but I speak more Spanish than I do Irish! My German is about the same as my Irish. I still believe that the Irish language is part of my national identity and heritage. I wish I spoke fluent Irish, as do most Irish people, I believe. There is a problem in the way it is taught. If the language weren't such an integral part of our identity, then the British would not have tried to suppress it in the way that they did, along with the practice of the GAA code, Irish traditional music and dance. Our National Anthem is to this day sung in Irish (let's not talk about rugby).

The Irish language is part of who I am, and something that connects me to my fellow Irishman. It is a bond that can break down barriers in many parts of the world, and set us apart. Truly, it may die, but it will be a sad day. But to this day, the Irish language, fluent or not, is a mark of being Irish.

Scott
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tommy
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Key to controlling the mob is same language, as propaganda is difficult if your trying to control a society that speaks more than one or their own. That is why the Irish were taught to speak English and Patrick Pearse (Padraig Pearse) knew the English game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0PjKJ9nHS4


Great speach. Even in English.
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Davit Sicseek
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Quote:
But if there were no French then how would we know if something were lost in translation?
How many different ways has Sun Tzu, The Dhammapadda, The Bible, etc. been reinterpreted and diminished by translation?


Academis have studied French to the extent that even if everyone stopped speaking it, people could still study the language and be able to speak it to a decent level. Would they be speaking it exactly the same way as the 'natural' speakers? No. But today great grandchildren speak French differently to their great grandparents.

Quote:
The Irish language is part of who I am, and something that connects me to my fellow Irishman. It is a bond that can break down barriers in many parts of the world, and set us apart. Truly, it may die, but it will be a sad day. But to this day, the Irish language, fluent or not, is a mark of being Irish.

Are you really irish? Or are you of Irish descent? I'm 1/4 Irish and couldn't care less about not being able to speak the language. In terms of identity, my Irishness is way down the list. Self identifying primarily in terms of one's nationality or race is unfortunate and not something that I'd wish to encourage.
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
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