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gnosis Regular user 110 Posts |
As I read articles and forum posts that mention interesting magic books, I tend to look up those books in my local and university libraries, and then (if I don't find them) in Worldcat (which contains a listing of library holdings all across the US and even in parts of Canada). And I must say I'm very disappointed by the lack of magic books in public libraries.
Apart from the classics, and really mainstream books, public libraries don't really seem to have many of the books I've seen mentioned. It's not just that these books aren't widely available in many public libraries across the US, but that often only three or four libraries in the entire country will have a given book. Not infrequently, a magic book will only be in a single library in the entire country (more often than not, it's Brown University's library, which seems to have an exceptionally complete collection. Far better even than the Library of Congress). I'm not quite sure why this is. Is it that so many magic books have been self-published or published by small presses, and authors of these books either don't think to donate some copies to libraries? Or is it that magic literature just hasn't gotten much respect from libraries? Or is it that owners of magic books tend not to donate their collections to libraries, as do owners of many other types of books? Has anyone else noticed this, or have any ideas of why this might be? With that said, I know some of the members of this forum must have quite extensive collections of obscure, rare, and unusual magic books. I'd like to encourage you to consider ensuring that your books wind up in public libraries after you no longer need them (instead of leaving them to be sold to used bookstores in estate sales and what have you). Even in the age of the internet the public libraries are a wonderful resource and I hope you support them. |
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Kevin Connolly Inner circle New Jersey 1329 Posts |
Never, ever donate your collection to a library. Unless you give a very large endowment to take care of the books, your collection will not be appreciated. And more likely, never used. Abused would be more like it.
I have had experiences with magic collections being donated to libraries. They either wind-up being discarded, poorly stored or sold off. If you really want to circulate the books, sell them to someone who will care for them.
Please visit my website.
www.houdinihimself.com Always looking buy or trade for original Houdini, Hardeen and escape artist items. I'm interested in books, pitchbooks and ephemera. Email [email]hhoudini@optonline.net[/email] |
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gnosis Regular user 110 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-05-24 15:56, Kevin Connolly wrote: Could you elaborate on your experiences? What libraries were these collections donated to? And why do you think every library will treat magic collections as poorly as those you've had experiences with? |
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Kevin Connolly Inner circle New Jersey 1329 Posts |
These were with NYPL, Lincoln Center, etc. Besides libraries not accepting them at all.
Do you think a collection would need an endowment. And if so, how much?
Please visit my website.
www.houdinihimself.com Always looking buy or trade for original Houdini, Hardeen and escape artist items. I'm interested in books, pitchbooks and ephemera. Email [email]hhoudini@optonline.net[/email] |
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gnosis Regular user 110 Posts |
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On 2010-05-24 16:37, Kevin Connolly wrote: I honestly don't know. I was just trying to think of ways to remedy the relative lack of magic books in public libraries. Donation seemed to be the logical way to go. |
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Kevin Connolly Inner circle New Jersey 1329 Posts |
I had a decent size general magic book collection at one time, till I started to focus on just on Houdini and related material. The general magic books totaled about 5,000 or so. They dated from 1780's on up the 1990's. Do you think many libraries could handle such a collection? Without money?
Over the last 40 years dozens of major collections have been dispersed. I think 2-3 of them were donated to an institution. One had cash involved to go along with the books. This is key, because you need money for care and to keep the collection current. Also, major librtaries will sell off and even trade away items. That's some kick in the head fpr the person donating their items. I'll stick with selling a collection. If people didn't sell, how could you amass a collection or rare material?
Please visit my website.
www.houdinihimself.com Always looking buy or trade for original Houdini, Hardeen and escape artist items. I'm interested in books, pitchbooks and ephemera. Email [email]hhoudini@optonline.net[/email] |
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gnosis Regular user 110 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-05-24 17:06, Kevin Connolly wrote: Well, you could consider donating to a library which already has an established collection of magic books. Like I mentioned in my original post, Brown University seems to have a very extensive magic book collection. Perhaps if you contact them and discuss your needs and concerns, they might be able to advise you as to their willingness and capability for taking proper care of your books. They may even know of other libraries with magic book collections that are looking to increase their holdings. In any case, with a significant collection like yours, I think contacting them would be worth a try and couldn't hurt. Quote:
Over the last 40 years dozens of major collections have been dispersed. I think 2-3 of them were donated to an institution. One had cash involved to go along with the books. This is key, because you need money for care and to keep the collection current. Yes, I think endowments would definitely help, especially in cases where the library would either otherwise not be interested or financially capable of maintaining a collection on its own. But I'm not sure that's the case for all or even most libraries. After all, just look at your typical university library (for example). They tend to have extensive holdings in a wide variety of subject areas. Why not magic? Quote:
Also, major librtaries will sell off and even trade away items. That's some kick in the head fpr the person donating their items. Yes. Definitely. But I'm sure this is a concern that's not unique to magic book collectors who are interested in donating to libraries. It must be a common concern for other types of collectors as well. Yet one way or another these concerns must have been addressed, as libraries to manage to get other types of collections. Quote:
I'll stick with selling a collection. If people didn't sell, how could you amass a collection or rare material? I don't think there's a shortage of magic books for sale. Virtually all the books I've searched for have been offered for sale either through sites like Amazon, or conglomerates of used book dealers like Abe or Half. But there is clearly a lack of magic books (especially rare, obscure, and unusual ones) in public libraries. That's where the real need is. |
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Kevin Connolly Inner circle New Jersey 1329 Posts |
Yes, one could contact Brown et. al., but that wouldn't stop any one of them from selling, trading or liquidating your collection 2 weeks after they acquired it.
If you want to use Brown for an example, that's a long trip for most everyone. What are the magic titles taht are so rare that you can't get your hands on? If it exists, it's out there. With probable thanks to some collector digging it out.
Please visit my website.
www.houdinihimself.com Always looking buy or trade for original Houdini, Hardeen and escape artist items. I'm interested in books, pitchbooks and ephemera. Email [email]hhoudini@optonline.net[/email] |
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gnosis Regular user 110 Posts |
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On 2010-05-24 18:02, Kevin Connolly wrote: You could donate the books on the condition that the books are kept in the library's collection and not sold. Of course, these kinds of concerns could and should be worked out beforehand. Quote:
If you want to use Brown for an example, that's a long trip for most everyone. True. But like I mentioned in my previous post, the curators of Brown's collection might know of other, closer libraries in search of magic books. You probably wouldn't be the first to contact them about this. Quote:
What are the magic titles taht are so rare that you can't get your hands on? If it exists, it's out there. With probable thanks to some collector digging it out. I can get my hands on them, but I'd have to buy them (often without so much as seeing them). The whole point of a library is that the books in them are free and available to everyone. Also, they get books in to the hands of many more people than would otherwise have access to those books. But I'm not really here to sell you on the virtues of public libraries. You'd pretty much have to value them in order to consider donating to them. The real question is, if you do value them how can they best be helped to acquire more books on magic? |
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Kevin Connolly Inner circle New Jersey 1329 Posts |
You can't force a library or anyone for that matter once you donate or bequeath something. So that is not an option.
Well like I said in so many words, the books are available. Either in a library or in a collection. Bottom line is, to trust a library to keep and maintain books, any kind of books, is asking for the world. To think how many millions of books they discarded, threw out, lost, etc. and to give them more? That's not logicical. If the collector has them, then they have true value. The collector will know what is in them, where they are, etc. Any kind of magic history book, documentary, exhibit, etc. needs to have the collector involved. With an insitution, there is no expert to deal with the collection and their help is hit or miss. Someday I'll post more on my blog. Good Luck, Kevin
Please visit my website.
www.houdinihimself.com Always looking buy or trade for original Houdini, Hardeen and escape artist items. I'm interested in books, pitchbooks and ephemera. Email [email]hhoudini@optonline.net[/email] |
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gnosis Regular user 110 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-05-24 18:57, Kevin Connolly wrote: I don't know what recourse the donator would have after he's donated his books, if the library sold off the books or treated them in some manner that was contrary to what the donator and library had agreed to before the donation was made. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the library would be free to do whatever it wanted, even in contradiction to an agreement made with the donator. This is why, I think, one would need to research the matter a bit and maybe speak to others who've made donations to that library, and also with the library itself and ask them what kind of assurances they could provide that the books would be taken good care of after the donation is made. And this is also why it would be important to donate to a library that had a good reputation of taking care of its books, and one that you could trust. Quote:
Well like I said in so many words, the books are available. Either in a library or in a collection. Usually the rarer and more obscure ones are in the hands of private collectors or booksellers. They are available, to those who can afford the privilege. Public libraries are for the rest that can't. Quote:
Bottom line is, to trust a library to keep and maintain books, any kind of books, is asking for the world. I don't think it's asking the world. But you certainly would need to find a trustworthy library that is sympathetic to taking good care of your donation. It is unfortunate that you had some bad experiences with libraries, and we should all learn your experience to be careful to whom how our donations are made. But I'm not as ready as you are to give up on libraries. I've been in many libraries that have superb collections of exceedingly rare books, and excellent and varied collections of less rare but still unusual books. Somehow these books made it in to their collection. And I don't think it was all through endowments by the donator, as these books were in their general collections, not in special collections. Why should magic books be treated less well than the rest? Quote:
To think how many millions of books they discarded, threw out, lost, etc. and to give them more? That's not logicical. I'm not a librarian, but my feeling (judging by the age of the books in the libraries I've visited and noticing the same books on the shelf year after year), is that the number of lost and discarded books is really insignificant compared to the total number of books in their collections. Of course some accidents happen, and libraries do discard some (usually very common and low-quality) books. But the overwhelming majority of books stay on their shelves for decades if not much, much longer. I think this would go double for rare and unusual books. Quote:
If the collector has them, then they have true value. The collector will know what is in them, where they are, etc. Any kind of magic history book, documentary, exhibit, etc. needs to have the collector involved. With an insitution, there is no expert to deal with the collection and their help is hit or miss. I truly value private collectors. They do care about their books, and usually take good care of them. But unfortunately, most of the books in private collections are available to that collector only, along with maybe a few of his friends. And if the collection is eventually sold, any given book will probably wind up in the hands of only one other person (often not even a collector, and one who might not value or take care of the book nearly as well as the original collector did). In that time many people could have had the pleasure of reading them and gaining knowledge from them, if only the books had been in public libraries. But, as I said before, I'm not here to convince you of the value of libraries, just to encourage those of us who do value libraries try to think of ways we can help them to get more magic books for their collections. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7004 Posts |
Why on earth would you want to see the secrets of magic more readily available to the public? Now don't get me wrong, I'm very happy my childhood libraries had magic history books and some beginners books to get me started with everyday objects- but that's it. When I go to a library and see a book of magic originally written for magicians only I cringe. I look around to see if anyone has noticed it and then wish I could somehow hide it. And then offer to buy it so it doesn't fall into the hands of the unworthy.
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gnosis Regular user 110 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-05-25 00:57, magicfish wrote: In my experience, the "general public" rarely steps foot in to a library at all, much less spends their time poring over obscure books in the magic section. This goes double for younger people in this age of the internet, where so much information is available at their fingertips online, and who likely don't see libraries as anything more than dreary places for doing homework. No. I don't think you have to worry about a typical audience member figuring out your secrets because some of those secrets happen to be buried in some obscure book in his local library. The people spending time in the magic section of their libraries are much more likely to be aspiring magicians, who we're lucky show enough interest to spend their time this way instead of on any of a thousand other available activities. Besides, the classic books available in most libraries contain the core foundations of magic in them already. They would be more than adequate to raise the knowledge of your typical audience member far above what it is today, and yet the vast majority of audience members are still woefully ignorant of even those fundamentals, despite having library access to them. And if they do know how some minor trick is done, it's probably because they saw the secret on TV, or in a movie, or maybe heard it from a friend. I think that's because the "general public" just isn't interested enough in how magic works to seek out even the easily and freely available information to be found in most any library. And having more rare, obscure, and unusual magic books in libraries isn't going to change that. But it could make a big difference for aspiring magicians who otherwise couldn't afford them. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7004 Posts |
I think you're right about that , gnosis. Very well said. I still wouldn't donate my books to a library, but I hear your point.
Rod |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
One of the reasons you don't see many magic books in libraries is that wonderful new piece of technology, the ISBN. If a book does not have an ISBN, most libraries won't purchase it. Basically, an ISBN makes it an "official" book. ISBN's have been around since 1970. In some countries, it is illegal to publish any book without an ISBN.
They are not expensive, but you do have to keep track of them if you use them. As far as donating magic books to public or school libraries -- go ahead on. Do it. Just let me know where they go, because two or three years after you donate them, and they decide what to do with them, I want to be around to bid on them. Brown University has such a great magic library because of H. Adrian Smith. But what Smith donated to the library is material that you really can't find without a heck of a lot of heavy searching rhese days -- original 16th and 17th centyury books, such as Scot, Sports and Pastimes etc. These are available as reprints, but they really aren't the same. There is at least one other library in the US that beats the H. Adrian Smith collection all to pieces, and anyone can go to one of the biggest ones and read the material. They never sell their overstock, either. But they probably wouldn't want your collection, because if it was printed in the US and copyrighted, there should be a copy of it in their collection. That's the Library of Congress. When my friend, Wesley Starbuck passed away in 1977, his family donated all of his books, including his bound volumes of Genii, to the Looscan branch of the Houston Public Library. They were stored for three years, then put on the sale table. If you want to share your books with people who want to learn about magic, donate them to your local magic club and set up an endowment to cover the cost of a building to house them, along with shelves, etc. This kind of donation is a perfect example of the meaning of a white elephant. Look it up. If you were a maharaja and you wanted to cause financial damage to one of your "friends," you gave him a white elephant. He couldn't refuse it. The elephant ate like crazy, and because the Indians worshipped these animals, it had to be treated like a god, and could not be harmed. So, warn your public library that you want to donate your collection. There is only one thing they want less than a big collection of magic books. That's a big collection of National Geographic Magazines.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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gnosis Regular user 110 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-05-25 15:35, Bill Palmer wrote: Why do you think they have that sort of attitude towards magic books? And what can be done to change it? |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
First you would have to convince the major groups of librarians that magic was anything other than a hobby. Magic is not considered an art by most of the library associations.
If you want to get them to change their attitudes, you would need to change the attitude of the public. How often have you told people that you were a magician and had them answer. "Oh, really? My son is turning 6 next year? Do you perform at children's birthday parties?" Bad kid show magiciasn arguably do an awfully large amount of damage to the public's perception of what we do as an art form. Reading this thread might help. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=44 Check the web sites of those who have posted to the thread.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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mindguru Veteran user 320 Posts |
My experience is that you won't find much in the library and definitely not the good stuff.
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mindguru Veteran user 320 Posts |
It seems what Bill Palmer said abut ISBN is probably the reason why.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I should also point out that most of us who are in the business, including those of us who are publishers, are not really interested in having our material put into public libraries. If you are going to search college library catalogs to get magic books, we certainly don't want our material being bounced around to various people who are on the margins of magic.
Why should I, as a publisher, encourage libraries to buy the books that contain the secrets that my authors and I have created, just so people who aren't willing to pay for our efforts can borrow them from a library. There are books that are intended for libraries, such as Milbourne Christopher's Illustrated History of Magic, the Hoffman books and Illustrated Magic. I don't want to see The Cézanne Code in ANY public library, because it was sold with a non-disclosure agreement, to professional mentalists who will actually use it. This is not material for the public.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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