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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » How come so many posts on the magic Café are about "teaching magic" ? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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gaddy
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I mean really! What's the deal?

Is it a "Those who can, do. Those who can't, expose... I mean teach!" thing?

Just shut up and stop trying to justify your exposure of our magic.
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
stijnhommes
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There is a difference between exposure and teaching.
Teaching is when a magician allows a student the advantage of their knowledge to better their magical skill.
Exposing is when someone reveals magic secrets for anyone to see, either through posting them on the internet to look clever or "accidentally" through bad performance (and no practice).
brangwinj
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I teach magic at an elementary school and I have experienced many children get self confidence and a new better out look on life.. Are you really worried they know how the the little sponge ball gets big ? This whole exposure thing gets over worked. The truth is if you have the money what trick cant you learn ?? Doesn't every convention have lectures that sell the trick. If you have the gold you make the rules .
BrianMillerMagic
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Yes Gaddy, you're right. And I'm sure you reinvented everything you ever learned in magic by brooding alone in a room purely through your rationality like Descartes in the Meditations. Probably this isn't the case. Any Magician's Code will tell you that knowledge transfer of magic is okay, provided that the students are serious about it, willing to learn, and have also accepted the Code. With all you post on the Café, I'm perplexed by your conflation of 'teaching' with 'exposure'.
gaddy
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Quote:
On 2010-05-27 11:30, BrianMillerMagic wrote:
Yes Gaddy, you're right. And I'm sure you reinvented everything you ever learned in magic by brooding alone in a room purely through your rationality like Descartes in the Meditations. Probably this isn't the case. Any Magician's Code will tell you that knowledge transfer of magic is okay, provided that the students are serious about it, willing to learn, and have also accepted the Code. With all you post on the Café, I'm perplexed by your conflation of 'teaching' with 'exposure'.

To answer your first reductio ad absurdum, I can state that, in my own case, every single bit of magical knowledge I have acquired has been sought out, and in most cases, paid for. We prove that we are serious students of the art by being willing to pay for the privilege of knowing. Obviously, paying money isn't the only way of proving one's serious intention -but it's a good one.

Every couple weeks there is another post by someone looking for "advice" (or "justification" in my humble opinion) for teaching a classroom full of kids - what ever sort of tricks.

Is there a rash of new classes in middle school for teaching magic? Are there new schools of magic being founded every day that I am unaware of?

I highly doubt every single one of those kids in those classrooms cares ONE BIT about magic or learning magic. The magic is being exposed in front of them, and therefore they are looking, not learning. That is exposure.

Children are introduced to the "wonders of magic" by seeing magic performed and then thinking to themselves "how can I do that?", not by being plonked-down in front of a "teacher" who then shows them, and 25 other kids, how to do the ball-and-vase. any "teacher" who thinks otherwise certainly doesn't understand what interests children...

Brian, I fully agree that teaching magic to a serious student is okay. But the sort of posts that I'm seeing simply do not qualify.

Also, It used to be that magic was taught one-on-one. A competent teacher taught a desirous student. OR, at best, you had a lecturer addressing a room of magicians and students of magic. These days the magic is simply being exposed. And in some cases, for no other reason than to just kill some time in the classroom.

Sure, magic always been exposed -but that doesn't make it right.

And to those who say "Kids find confidence learning magic", I say -they'll get more confidence out of learning sports or art than the geeky craft of magic. Leave magic to those who seek it out!
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
ralphs007
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I have people ask me all the time to teach them a trick. I tell them that the library has tons of magic books where they can learn magic. I don't think anybody has ever taken my advice and stopped into the library . If they won't take the time to get a book that's free for there use then they don't deserve or have the desire to learn.
Long story short. Twenty years ago I pointed someone who was interested in learning magic to a magic shop in Philly. Turns out he did coin in a bottle for his buddies. They wanted to know the secret so they all chipped in and payed him to reveal the secret. I still regret helping him and wish I just told him to go to the library .
That was the last time I referred someone to a magic shop. And I never tell them about online magic shops either.
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him".
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gaddy
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Quote:
On 2010-05-27 15:28, ralphs007 wrote:
I have people ask me all the time to teach them a trick. I tell them that the library has tons of magic books where they can learn magic. I don't think anybody has ever taken my advice and stopped into the library . If they won't take the time to get a book that's free for there use then they don't deserve or have the desire to learn.
Long story short. Twenty years ago I pointed someone who was interested in learning magic to a magic shop in Philly. Turns out he did coin in a bottle for his buddies. They wanted to know the secret so they all chipped in and payed him to reveal the secret. I still regret helping him and wish I just told him to go to the library .
That was the last time I referred someone to a magic shop. And I never tell them about online magic shops either.


Wow! That's pretty harsh, but it mostly reflects how I feel as well.

"I" am the one who knows magic. "I" am the magician. I'm not about to stop someone else from learning magic, but it would take a very serious student to get me to reveal my secrets -and I'm not even sure I'm qualified to teach them. There is a world of difference between knowing how a trick is done and being able to teach that method to someone else.

Again:
Quote:
"Those who can... DO. Those who cannot... expose
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
dsalley13
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I'm going to seriously limit my time here from now on and just come here daily to check out and maybe buy some cr@p. It seems to be getting to be well over 50% plain bi(ching and moaning about "You said this...", I said that..." You exposed by saying the word R3ll", "well you said the word sh&ll", etc., etc., ad infinitum.

A whole lot of newbys come in and want to be intellectual deputies by turning in posts that have a forbidden word or posting a forbidden thought and then smile in their PMs of how they got over on you. It's all just getting real old. What a bunch of horse pucky!!! I'll keep checking in and see if anybody has grown up enough to have adult conversations and the trading of ideas for the benefit of all.



dsalley13
gaddy
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Quote:
On 2010-05-27 15:42, dsalley13 wrote:
I'm going to seriously limit my time here from now on and just come here daily to check out and maybe buy some cr@p. It seems to be getting to be well over 50% plain bi(ching and moaning about "You said this...", I said that..." You exposed by saying the word R3ll", "well you said the word sh&ll", etc., etc., ad infinitum.

A whole lot of newbys come in and want to be intellectual deputies by turning in posts that have a forbidden word or posting a forbidden thought and then smile in their PMs of how they got over on you. It's all just getting real old. What a bunch of horse pucky!!! I'll keep checking in and see if anybody has grown up enough to have adult conversations and the trading of ideas for the benefit of all.



dsalley13


Sorry you feel this way. I feel that this subject is worthy of a real discussion, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it -believe me I've got better things I could be doing than complaining that a bunch of strangers are teaching magic to kids...

But I feel the idea behind my complaint strikes at the heart as to who most people don't take magic seriously -because many of it's practitioners are willing to sell it out for a moment of two of titillation, often disguised as a "teaching moment".
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
ryesteve
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Wouldn't it make more sense to rail against the morons who post YouTube exposure videos that get thousands of hits, rather than casting aspersions on the motives of a handful of people who decide to teach a dozen kids?
gaddy
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Quote:
On 2010-05-27 15:58, ryesteve wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to rail against the morons who post YouTube exposure videos that get thousands of hits, rather than casting aspersions on the motives of a handful of people who decide to teach a dozen kids?


Those people are beneath even contempt. But you make a good point.
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
rklew64
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Finally! And I thought I was the only one here feeling this way. That is why there should be another area in the forum for people who have at least 1k of posts to really discuss magic without the riff raff mixed in with everybody.
I am tired of many others who help spoon-feed magic advice (Teaching) to others who are lazy. Those who do are too nice and may not be able to discern the real sincere new magicians from posers that just want the easy way w/o any show of effort. Is it so hard to effing google or even use the search engine on this forum to do the homework first and read and cross reference things. Research the book's toc (table of contents), Finally!
Huuuh, can someone tell me what is the difference between an Okito box and a Boston box, and where I can buy one and tell me who has the best routines and why and who is David Roth and is this a new trick? CMON !! Grrrrrr. And someone sure enough will lay it all out. A young generation self centered punks that have zero work ethics and act as everything is owed to them automatically. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
coolini
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And to those who say "Kids find confidence learning magic", I say -they'll get more confidence out of learning sports or art than the geeky craft of magic. Leave magic to those who seek it out!
[/quote]

that was spot on, well said...i totally agree with you.
Jaxon
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I first got into magic before the internet. I was fortunate to have two magic shops in my town and Abbott's magic company just a short 40 minute drive away. So I was able to meet and learn from hundreds of magicians. I learned not only by their teaching and examples of the right way. But also by observing people their mistakes. So basically it allowed me to learn from some of their mistakes rather then making all of them myself.

Back then magicians mainly only got together at magic club meetings, conventions and occasional phone calls. So when the internet became more widely used it was so much easier for magicians to discuss things about magic.

Rather then talking about them in places where general public gather and could read. We created places like this. True, non-magicians can come here but in all honesty most won't even know where to look. Or rather wouldn't have the drive to find a place like this.

Even if they do and someone comes here and asks "How is this done" it's unlikely they'll get an answer. It's true we do discuss magic here. But it's not like we're saying "This is how it's done".

Besides what else would you expect. If all we did in here is discuss the weather and news this wouldn't be a magicians site. Smile

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After regaining my ability to hear after 20 years of deafness. I learned that there is magic all around you. The simplest sounds that amazed me you probably ignore. Look and listen around you right now. You'll find something you didn't notice before.
Aus
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I think first whats needed is to accept that each person has to find his or her own level of passion and commitment and that not everyone is going to be as passionate as you.

I have written How-To Guides on Buying Magic (Sticky), Presentation, Routining, Magic On a Budget, Getting Started in Magic all of which could be classified as exposure in your terms gaddy, but I personally don't see the diffrance in sending someone to the library in seach of a book to someone taking a piece of paper and a pen to routine which requires just as much effort if not more so.

My Guides are rather long in length and detailed which requires effort in it's self to take the time to read, let alone put them into practice. I think people that want a quick fix have passions just a quick, so even if you do tell them what the difference beween an Okito and Boston Box is and whats the best routine for it, it would be my guess it will be yesterdays news and relegated to the junk draw in no time.

Quote:
On 2010-05-27 17:10, rklew64 wrote:
Finally! And I thought I was the only one here feeling this way. That is why there should be another area in the forum for people who have at least 1k of posts to really discuss magic without the riff raff mixed in with everybody.


This would exclude me rklew64, and take some time to see some of my posts and I think you'll see that I have a lot to contribute to any discussion. The only reason I'v been here so long and only have a small number of posts is because I search the Café before posting, and even then only post when I feel there is nothing on my topic or if I only have something constructive to say. So 1k posts would'nt work for me.

Magician

Aus
MaxfieldsMagic
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Quote:
On 2010-05-27 17:45, Jaxon wrote:
True, non-magicians can come here but in all honesty most won't even know where to look. Or rather wouldn't have the drive to find a place like this.



This site comes up pretty high on the Google searches for most magic topics. In fact, I often exit the site and reenter it through a Google search on a particular topic in order to avoid the "sorry, you can't run another search again so soon" prompt.
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gaddy
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Quote:
On 2010-05-28 02:09, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-05-27 17:45, Jaxon wrote:
True, non-magicians can come here but in all honesty most won't even know where to look. Or rather wouldn't have the drive to find a place like this.



This site comes up pretty high on the Google searches for most magic topics. In fact, I often exit the site and reenter it through a Google search on a particular topic in order to avoid the "sorry, you can't run another search again so soon" prompt.


This is an unfortunate side effect of having a very open format for this forum. I've always wondered why Steve Brooks decided to go this route when designing The Magic Café, when demanding even a simple member registration before viewing anything other than the "New To Magic" forum would have prevented it's indirect contributions to exposure. But the Genii is out of the bottle there...
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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I have ttied many different approaches in the last 50 years to helping aspiring magicians and insiring others. This included forcing salepeople in a workshop to learn and present a magic effect -- yes, it can effect confidence. I would offer these thoughts:

1) since every magician wants and expects an audience that is "keen on magic" they should invest some time either inspiring or assisting aspiring new magicians -- whatever that means to you. If you are not willing to teach, even by example, then you can't complain about audience response or attention. At least be be prepared to mentor a serious student.

2) all magic presentations are "exposure: to some extent. You are either exposing people to magic as entertainment, crappy magic to turn people off, or providing clues as to "hopw it's done" for the discerning viewer. When you do a kids show the adults can often 'figure it out', When you show you favorite effect again and again some will 'figure it out'.

3) if you teach magic offer one effect. When the student learns it and can perform it adequately you teach them another -- and it is never up to the student's desire what they learn next. You must teach presentation, timing, practice discipline etc. along with the trick.

4) treat each teaching venture as a success. Stopping training because a student won't practice is a valuable lesson. An experienced student should be treated the same. I have offered free effects to many on the Café with thousands of post with an agreement that they provide feedback. Only 27% have met that commitment -- perhaps because no one ever held them accountable when they were young. Well, you don't get a second effect no matter how famous you are.

I guess the point is that you must be serious about sharing magic at any level. You must chose your own ethical level of sharing, but I'd rather error on the training side than never inspire new magicians at all. If I do a kid's birthday party I give each kid a small magic set and perform a couple of the effects during the show. It's up to them to carry forward if the desire is there, but "no" -- I never show a group how a trick is done.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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MaxfieldsMagic
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Quote:
On 2010-05-28 10:26, funsway wrote:
I have offered free effects to many on the Café with thousands of post with an agreement that they provide feedback. Only 27% have met that commitment -- perhaps because no one ever held them accountable when they were young. Well, you don't get a second effect no matter how famous you are.



27%... sounds like you're keeping pretty precise records. Guess I'd better get around to writing that review I promised you last May. Sorry!
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55Hudson
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Quote:

On 2010-05-27 17:10, rklew64 wrote:
Finally! And I thought I was the only one here feeling this way. That is why there should be another area in the forum for people who have at least 1k of posts to really discuss magic without the riff raff mixed in with everybody.

Wow -- tough crowd here. If new users couldn't access anything other than the new member thread, what value would they get from this site?

Is this an argument of experienced versus inexperienced, or of dedicated versus casual? There is considerable difference. I am a novice at magic, however very serious in its study.

I agree that exposure is not appropriate and never has been -- for exposure's sake. However, without exposure at some level, the craft would have never advanced or been passed from one generation to another. There will always be those that choose to diminish the profession, however that is the case for every profession (Lawyers, Medical Doctors, Military Leaders, Politicians, MBA's ...). The best you can do is to ensure your actions set an example for others and try to influence those around you.

Hudson
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