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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » How come so many posts on the magic Café are about "teaching magic" ? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Mr. Mystoffelees
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No doubt, Mr. Miyagi would have a very dirty car were he to try "wax on wax off" with today's crowd! I agree with you 100%, gaddy, but have concluded most people on this forum see no harm in exposure of any kind.

This comes from having my head beat in by the exposure aficianados who will now descend upon this thread...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
othelo68
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Magic is magic. like everything else there are good intentioned people who do not so well thought out things. if your a humanist you just hope that every one is essentially good and move one. sometimes the post get a little redundant and lazy but you choose what you respond to. if you don't respond those who do will get tired of repeating themselves and stop as well. also you kinda have to take things with a grain of salt. people who are getting started in something new have a lot of passion and not a lot of skill. they want to do and see everything. eventually the will settle down and even out or get bored and stop. you were new once too. as far as exposure goes. yes it sucks, but your never going to stop it. as long as there is someone who knows and someone who wants to know things will get exposed. maybe magic police with machine guns should start patrolling the conventions, ring meetings, websites, and shop shooting anyone who performs poorly or rampantly exposes while a cool idea I don't think its feasible. people want to share their passions and will justify it anyway they can, most kids will forget. some wont either way what do you do. exposure isn't the reason magic is looked down upon its an abundance of poor performers doing the same tired tricks over and over.

it is what it is magic is magic

Posted: Jun 2, 2010 8:38pm
Holy punctuation Bat-Man! Should have edited that one.

sorry,
Bob1Dog
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"Twenty years ago I pointed someone who was interested in learning magic to a magic shop in Philly. Turns out he did coin in a bottle for his buddies."

Might that have been Irv Furman's Hocus Pocus shop on 4th Street? He died a few years back and the shop is now a boutique....just fyi.....bob

osted: Jun 3, 2010 2:45am
P.s. I still own a few decks of Irv's hand marked Bicycle Decks. There are better ones out there for sure, but his were the first ones I played with and fooled folks with.....
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about? Smile

My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums.
gaddy
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Quote:
On 2010-05-29 21:19, 55Hudson wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-05-27 17:10, rklew64 wrote:
Finally! And I thought I was the only one here feeling this way. That is why there should be another area in the forum for people who have at least 1k of posts to really discuss magic without the riff raff mixed in with everybody.

Wow -- tough crowd here. If new users couldn't access anything other than the new member thread, what value would they get from this site?

Is this an argument of experienced versus inexperienced, or of dedicated versus casual? There is considerable difference. I am a novice at magic, however very serious in its study.

Hudson


Nope, this is an argument against goof-balls who should not be exposing magic to classrooms or summer camps full of kids who don't care about it under the pretext of "teaching magic".

Also, indirectly, I'm arguing that magic should only be taught to those who seek it out, and that there should always be a price to pay... People rarely value that which is acquired for free.
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
Bryan Smith
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I completely agree with you, gaddy, but I don't know what to do about it. People place a value on things equal to what they paid for it. If someone gets something cheap or free, they don't value it even if it's worth valuing. You often hear people say things like "Be careful, that's a $500 vase!" If it was the exact same vase but cost $10, they wouldn't care about it. People should pay (either monetarily or otherwise) for learning magic.

That said, what can be done? Practically nothing as far as I can see. If you have any ideas besides complaining about it in a forum, I'd like to know. We all know it's a problem. Well some people don't seem to think it is, but those people are obviously at least as good at fooling themselves as they are their audiences (or often they're not working magicians at all). The question now is what to do. If I hear any good ideas, I'll gladly implement them.

P.S. Today, I have decided to take out a really powerful effect from my show. It's the type of effect that has had people talking about it for weeks afterwards and telling everyone they met what they saw. It stuns kids and adults alike into screams or prolonged stunned silence. I have spent a lot of time developing my patter and presentation to get it just right. However, nowadays, I am having more and more kids in the audience who know how it's done. How they found out, I don't know. Today was the last straw. In two shows back to back there was some jack@$$ kid yelling out to everyone how it was done. That leaves me questioning how many POLITE kids also know how it's done. Due to exposure, that effect is just no longer worth the risk. Thanks, all you magic teachers out there.
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ryesteve
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Quote:
On 2010-06-03 06:13, Bryan Smith wrote:
However, nowadays, I am having more and more kids in the audience who know how it's done. How they found out, I don't know.
YouTube.
Hugo
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First, I totally agree with gaddy's posts in this thread. Second, I agree with Bryan that jack@$$ kids are multiplying exponentially and, sad to say, showing up at magic shows. However, exposure has ALWAYS been a fear in this business. This fear has crippled some careers, led to fierce competitions among rival magicians, and, ultimately, resulted in spawning new tricks and new ways of performing the classics! So, to Bryan's question, "What can be done?" The answer is, "Nothing." Exposure is part of the endless circle of creation & decay. Exposure is actually what drives us to create bigger & better (at least for a little while) magic!

Now, I'm not saying that anyone should expose magic for the "betterment" of the art. Far from it! However, when the secret has entered the mainstream (via youtube or some mis-guided mage) it is time to move on, as Bryan did. However, before giving up totally on the illusion, I might suggest borrowing an idea from Penn & Teller: perform the trick and let the jack@$$es scream out the secret, then blow their minds by proving them wrong. Smile
funsway
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Quote:
On 2010-06-03 03:29, gaddy wrote:
Also, indirectly, I'm arguing that magic should only be taught to those who seek it out, and that there should always be a price to pay... People rarely value that which is acquired for free.


Yes, but the 'payment' does not have to be in money. Placing a bartered monetary price on a lesson or 'secret' can also limit its value. $10 can be a lot for one person and meaningless for another -- so the implication is that wealthy people have a greater right to magic secrets than poorer folk. So, I have always charged something else of value to the student like "one hour of your time for a project of my choice" As noted above, any failure to meet a commitment stops the Lessons.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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ralphs007
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Quote:
On 2010-06-03 02:42, Bob1Dog wrote:
"Twenty years ago I pointed someone who was interested in learning magic to a magic shop in Philly. Turns out he did coin in a bottle for his buddies."

Might that have been Irv Furman's Hocus Pocus shop on 4th Street? He died a few years back and the shop is now a boutique....just fyi.....bob

Hi
No, it was called Philadelphia Magic. I think they were on market street.
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him".
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DWRackley
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Quote:
Gaddy

…magic should only be taught to those who seek it out, and that there should always be a price to pay…

Quote:
funsway

…but the 'payment' does not have to be in money…


Both VERY true!

When I started in Magic, I was a teenager with only the money I could beg from my parents. In fact, the magic shop became my first paying job. Both cleaning the shop and waiting on customers was a thrill for me, and I learned (at first) by copying the seasoned pros around me. A few would take the time to give me “pointers”, which I treasured.

After I’d “proven” myself with a particular prop, Carl (the owner) would let me borrow his personal items for a show, until I could buy (or build) my own.

I also helped loading, carrying, and setting up equipment for others in the local club, anything I could do to get close to the Magic.

Highlight of my life (even to date) was receiving a standing ovation from a room full of magicians for a performance at the Palace of Mystery. I guess I think of that as my “graduation”.

I didn’t think of it in terms of “paying dues”, it was just what you did to get in.

YouBoob hasn’t done us any favors, but it also doesn’t help those who steal ideas through it. They’ll never get the coaching needed to produce a true “miracle”.

Exposure hurts everyone, both “us” and “them”.
...what if I could read your mind?

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impossible man
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There is a huge interest in magic among young people, about 8-10. Around third grade though, a lot of boys lose interest as they focus on sports. This is the age I am often hired to teach. I have always charged for my lessons. And I expect even the youngsters to learn a few "moves," like a false transfer.

One of the camp staff told one of the struggling campers the other day, "magic is hard, you have to practice." That is exactly the way I want them to remember part of the lesson.

As far as showing a trick to grown ups for their own use, I teach them a moderately hard trick, and postpone teaching them anything else until they can perform that trick well. If they do the work, they may be attracted in to the hobby. If not, I have a built-in excuse for refusing them any more instruction.
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Cyberqat
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Edited: My first reaction was perhaps over-harsh and I apologize, but you REALLY hit a nerve.

I don't think anyone here would argue that reveals are a good thing, that's why we have the banquet room

Magic has always been taught and a maintained by communities however, and this is as valid a community as any. A community to be healthy must be welcoming to new members and I am sure we all here have our ways of seperatign the wheat from the chaff in that regard.

I don't see, however, how having opened your wallet makes you some how more worthy then the kid whose pockets are empty? Furthermore, we all * should* know that magic isn't about "great secrets." The techniques are ancient. Magic is about presentation and performance.

Finally, I really don't see the harm in the story above about the coin in the bottle. What is really the difference between them paying their friend to learn it and someone buying a book to learn it or paying a tutor? that kind of "small scale" reveal does no real damage to the art and MIGHT end up recruiting another community member who gets excited to learn more.

What is heinous are the indiscriminate mass-audience reveals. And mostly, they just hurt the audience.

Posted: Jul 8, 2010 10:58am
P.S. I personally think that anyone who even *finds* the Café has already demonstrated at least some initiative and is likely to be a good community addition.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
Douglas Lippert
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Quote:
On 2010-05-27 01:42, gaddy wrote:
I mean REALLY! What's the deal?

Is it a "Those who can, do. Those who can't, expose... I mean TEACH!" thing?

Just shut up and stop trying to justify your exposure of our magic.


A lot of times a child will ask if he/she can do magic like me. I say yes you can! Then, I show them a rather simple trick and ask if they can keep a secret. You know the rest..and I let them keep the deck of cards as a gift. If they do get the magic bug they will go to the library and find a magic book like I did...Smile

Having said that, if someone does not ASK me with a genuine interest I will not just teach them tricks. That IS exposure.
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Mr. Mystoffelees
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Quote:
On 2010-07-08 10:58, Cyberqat wrote:
P.S. I personally think that anyone who even *finds* the Café has already demonstrated at least some initiative and is likely to be a good community addition.


By just typing "magic forum" on google? Some benchmark...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On 2010-05-27 01:42, gaddy wrote:
I mean REALLY! What's the deal?

Is it a "Those who can, do. Those who can't, expose... I mean TEACH!" thing?

Just shut up and stop trying to justify your exposure of our magic.


Firstly, "shut up" is NOT conducive to positive discourse.

Now as to the hackneyed and false statement that "those who cannot do, teach." To believe that is to sully the Masters such as Slydini, Garcia, Annemann, Lorayne, Burger, McBride, etc. ALL are teachers. More importantly, the BEST teachers are also learners.

I think Brian Miller answered you quite well Gaddy. But, do we judge by BANK ACCOUNT or by MOTIVATION? Yes, there ARE those who only wish to be spoon-fed. Easy rememdy there. Ignore them. But I do take issue with your implication that teachers are incompetent exposers of the Art. Perhaps you did not clearly state the difference, especially since you emphasized the word "teach".

I respectfully submit that you have insulted many people past, present, and future.

Common courtesy will get you a lot further than a dismissive "shut up". Understand that I am not attacking you. But I AM hoping that you will see that your words are incorrect AND wrong on many levels.

One story I would like to share. The late master, Jim Cellini was a student of the great teacher and Master, Tony Slydini. My dear friend John Blake was also a student of Slydini. John also knew Cellini. John related a story in which Cellini was performing on the street one day when Slydini came to watch him. Please bear in mind that while Slydini was a kind soul, he was also a VERY exacting teacher, and as you know, one of the IMMORTALS in the pantheon of the Art. When Cellini finished his performance, The Master walked to him and said, "there is nothing more I can teach you. You are superb. Cellini WEPT at this! He begged the Master to keep him under his tutelage.

So, I ask you respectfully: in your assertion, given YOUR words, was Slydini an incompetent exposer of magic? I respectfully submit that to answer in the affirmative reduces you as a magician. I DO hope you will reconsider your opinion, and I DO hope you will choose your discourse in a manner that is not insulting.

I am VERY thankful for EVERY mentor I have had. Most of these mentors I have never met. Harry Lorayne and Slydini are my chief influences, but, I have had 20 years professionally in the Art and I have learned even from the neophyte. Every book you read, every DVD you watch Gaddy, is the act of a TEACHER.

Ahimsa .... Yes, this Hindi word, the one I always sign with IS appropriate here. So ...

Ahimsa,
Vlad

PS: GEEKY CRAFT?? I would really love to get your thoughts on THAT assertion Smile
Dougini
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Two reasons why I rarely perform any more.

Masked Magician
YouTube

The WORST offenders. All others pale in comparison.

Just my opinion,

Doug
gaddy
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Quote:
On 2010-07-10 17:45, Vlad_77 wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-05-27 01:42, gaddy wrote:
I mean REALLY! What's the deal?

Is it a "Those who can, do. Those who can't, expose... I mean TEACH!" thing?

Just shut up and stop trying to justify your exposure of our magic.


Firstly, "shut up" is NOT conducive to positive discourse.

Now as to the hackneyed and false statement that "those who cannot do, teach." To believe that is to sully the Masters such as Slydini, Garcia, Annemann, Lorayne, Burger, McBride, etc. ALL are teachers. More importantly, the BEST teachers are also learners.

I think Brian Miller answered you quite well Gaddy. But, do we judge by BANK ACCOUNT or by MOTIVATION? Yes, there ARE those who only wish to be spoon-fed. Easy rememdy there. Ignore them. But I do take issue with your implication that teachers are incompetent exposers of the Art. Perhaps you did not clearly state the difference, especially since you emphasized the word "teach".

I respectfully submit that you have insulted many people past, present, and future.

Common courtesy will get you a lot further than a dismissive "shut up". Understand that I am not attacking you. But I AM hoping that you will see that your words are incorrect AND wrong on many levels.

One story I would like to share. The late master, Jim Cellini was a student of the great teacher and Master, Tony Slydini. My dear friend John Blake was also a student of Slydini. John also knew Cellini. John related a story in which Cellini was performing on the street one day when Slydini came to watch him. Please bear in mind that while Slydini was a kind soul, he was also a VERY exacting teacher, and as you know, one of the IMMORTALS in the pantheon of the Art. When Cellini finished his performance, The Master walked to him and said, "there is nothing more I can teach you. You are superb. Cellini WEPT at this! He begged the Master to keep him under his tutelage.

So, I ask you respectfully: in your assertion, given YOUR words, was Slydini an incompetent exposer of magic? I respectfully submit that to answer in the affirmative reduces you as a magician. I DO hope you will reconsider your opinion, and I DO hope you will choose your discourse in a manner that is not insulting.

I am VERY thankful for EVERY mentor I have had. Most of these mentors I have never met. Harry Lorayne and Slydini are my chief influences, but, I have had 20 years professionally in the Art and I have learned even from the neophyte. Every book you read, every DVD you watch Gaddy, is the act of a TEACHER.

Ahimsa .... Yes, this Hindi word, the one I always sign with IS appropriate here. So ...

Ahimsa,
Vlad

PS: GEEKY CRAFT?? I would really love to get your thoughts on THAT assertion Smile

I don't think you understood what I was saying at all.

I'm not talking at all about the proper mentor/ student relationship at all.

I'm talking, for example, about foolish camp councilors and grade school teachers posting questions here on The Café asking about the "best method", for example, to teach a bunch of fourth graders the Ball and Vase.

Slydini never taught Coin One to the entire Muskrat patrol at Camp Bone-a-Gopher...

Those kids DON'T CARE, but they are looking in the general direction of the guy who just can't shut up about magic -but they are listening to him because that's the way their desks are turned!!! Out of those 25 kids, perhaps two of them have any real interest in magic, but the other 23 kids are now watching a guy go on and on at length about our methodologies -and that is exposure, plain and simple.

Also, it just occurs to me: If someone is asking questions on methods of the teaching of certain magic tricks to the general population of The Magic Café (such as it is!), is this a person who is really qualified to be teaching said tricks in the first place?
Just curious... Smile

Your other points I simply won't address.
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
Cyberqat
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Oh. Well, I have almost never seen a post like that. Maybe we son't look in the same parts of the forum?

As for the cup and ball, Adams has sold that for a buck or less for as long as I can remember in any toy or joke shop. I think teaching kids how to actually perform it is a good thing and hardly very "revealing." Even if only 2 kids actually get into it, that's two more future real magicians.

Posted: Jul 11, 2010 11:06am
OH as for Googling... given how many questions I answer here with "Google is a wonderful thing..." and a link I found with my first or second Google query, I wouldn't take finding us with a google to be "no work."

IMO At bear minimum it shows interest and initiative.
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gaddy
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Quote:
On 2010-07-11 11:06, Cyberqat wrote:
OH as for Googling... given how many questions I answer here with "Google is a wonderful thing..." and a link I found with my first or second Google query, I wouldn't take finding us with a google to be "no work."

IMO At bear minimum it shows interest and initiative.


I agree, however, again, that's not what I'm railing against here.
Quote:
On 2010-07-11 11:00, Cyberqat wrote:
Oh. Well, I have almost never seen a post like that. Maybe we son't look in the same parts of the forum?

The trend ebbs and flows. Sometimes I see quite a few, and at other times, not so many...
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
Mr. Mystoffelees
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Google is great- can be used to find correct spelling also. As to the 2 kids who "actually get into it", they will lose interest the first time they perform for one of the 23 who didn't but learned the secret anyway...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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