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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Table Faro and Riffle Stacking (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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The Dowser
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Since the topic has turned to cards and there quality, I am surprised that no one has mentioned (seeing as how the name of this thread is "Table Faro and Riffle Stacking") the ridiculous ease with which tabled faro shuffles can be attained when using traditional plastic poker cards as compared to the relative difficulty acquiring this sleight with normal cards.
BigSmile
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Have I mentioned the ridiculous ease with which tabled faro shuffles can be attained when using traditional plastic poker cards as compared to the relative difficulty acquiring this sleight with normal cards??? Smile
900nm
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In France people who play poker seriously usually have more than a few bucks in their pocket and often buy the most expensive deck, ie KEMs, or Copag at least, because their looking for quality. I believe it's the same everywhere. Stop talking about Chinese cards etc... here it's riffle stacking.
magicsavant
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I only brought it up because all home games around here that play for any real money use some form of plastic cards (usually bridge size copags).
AMcD
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Deleted by myself...
BigSmile
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Back to the topic:

Any news about the release date of your booklet Arnold?
AMcD
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Before fall normally. If things are going OK, maybe before...

The problem is many people would like I add "some" riffle material. And I'm not really sure about what and how much to add. Of course, it's relevant, but...

I think it would be better to write something exclusively about riffling techniques aside. To be honest, it's something I'm thinking about for years now. Material about riffling techniques is scarce, or hard to find, or mainly Magic related, etc. And I strongly believe a huge book on the subject would make sense.

But one thing at a time, stacking booklet first Smile.
bishthemagish
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Speaking as a magician I have also found that riffle shuffle work very rare. Some small gem pops up in a magic book from time to time - like Jack Merlins and a pack of cards. Or the Vernon copy of Revelations. In my opinion most of the work on riffle shuffling is the modified method of using a false shuffle to cull or stack or to cull and stack.

Just stacking three of a kind from the bottom or four of a kind from the bottom can be a rough thing in a demonstration as in the Jack Merlin book and a pack of cards - because as each ace goes deeper into the deck - as the next ace is stacked the performer might blow the stack as the two halves are shuffled together to stack the next ace.

Add culling to this mix (shuffle) and the problem becomes bigger - I call it the stacking deep problem.

This can be a problem when a magician is doing a demonstration. If they want to look like an expert in front of the audience - one card out of place will blow the demonstration. However if a card sharp is stacking a deck and there is one card out of place - and they don't get the hand - they can fold and wait for another deal.

Just a few thoughts that come to mind about the difference in the way the two different performers might use the same technique.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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AMcD
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Glenn,

With the method I'm gonna expose, you'll be able to stack 2-5 cards, for 2-10+ players, rather easily. It requires some practice, of course, but it's not that difficult. I mean, nothing to be compare with bottom stacking or such amazing stuff like holding 2 breaks while bottom riffling or stuff like that (as I've read in many methods).

I'll provide also material to rarely seen elsewhere like double duke and even some triple dukes.

Culling is not that important in card cheating, you gather the cards from the muck, you get some from your accomplices, or you use some from a previous bottom slug, etc. Or you get one from the wash, or the top or bottom you have glimpsed when squaring the cards. You don't always stack 3 of a kind in actual cheating! Very often, you spot an A and a 10 (just an example) and it's OK, you stack'em to you or your partner.

Taking the deck like it's offered to you, culling cards while riffling, stacking cards and dealing the top hand is much more related with Magic than actual play IMHO. That's why I've never been a big fan of Steven's stuff. 10 riffles to stack a set is not really natural...
bishthemagish
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Great Arnold I would be interested in knowing when you finish your work on it.

I agree that culling in magic is a very useful thing - however one of my interests is the Dai Vernon/Dad Stevens story. I wonder if Stevens used his cull back in the 50's and 60's how he used it? My thoughts on this is that if he used it in a game he might have culled two of a kind to the top and then did a third deal.

From my own experimentation on culling and stacking on the fly using the triumph shuffle it takes two shuffles to cull and stack one card - four shuffles for two cards - if the performer goes past two cards - that adds to the shuffling.

In a performance - this is fine because the magician is entertaining and talking to an audience - and the audience doesn't count the shuffles - partly they don't know that the magician is culling and stacking.

However in performance I like to use the jog (punch) shuffles more just because the shuffling is off the table - easier for the audience to see - because from my point of view - the magic is in the entertainment.

Just a few more thoughts that come to mind.

Thanks again I enjoyed your above post.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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AMcD
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Quote:
On 2010-06-29 12:23, bishthemagish wrote:
Great Arnold [...]

It's too much.
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2010-06-29 11:47, AMcD wrote:
Taking the deck like it's offered to you, culling cards while riffling, stacking cards and dealing the top hand is much more related with Magic than actual play IMHO. That's why I've never been a big fan of Steven's stuff. 10 riffles to stack a set is not really natural...

Speaking as a magician - with the triumph cull stack - culling and stacking four aces from a slug - it takes eight shuffles - that is two shuffles for each ace. To cull and stack four aces from the fly (from a free shuffled deck) is very hard unless the magician gets lucky and there are two or three aces together that last ace can be very hard to find - it make take more than eight shuffles.

At least that is my opinion coming from the experience and experimentation I have done with the Vernon triumph shuffle. This kind of technique may not be - your or others - cup of tea.

If I may add - the reason I think that this is useful for a magician in my opinion is that because of movies and TV shows - some audience members may expect a magician to be able to do this kind of thing. Jack Pyle - known in magic as the punch deck pro and was known for his poker and bridge deals. He was interested in all kinds of culling and stacking that could be used in front of an audience to give the audience the illusion that if they played cards with him - he would win.

In my opinion that is the root of the magician/card shark act and image.

Just a few more thoughts and opinion.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
bishthemagish
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If I may add... I have had many, many conversations with older entertainers that used to play cards. My dad used to play cards being an older vaudevillian a lot of older vaudevillians used to play cards between shows. As the show business story goes a lot of agents and clients and important people that used to book acts used to play cards.

Jack Pyle used to tell me that he used to play cards once a week at an agents office with a group of acts and other people connected with show business - back in the day.

So if I may add - my dad was a student of Erdanse - more than I was he could quote parts of the book word for word. The subject of culling and stacking came up one time. What he said because of the shuffling involved - culling was used by as he put it old time card sharps with a partner. One guy culls the deck goes to the next guy - he stacks the cull and the deck is cut by the first guy. That was his opinion of how Erdanse may have done it and got past the lots of shuffling and the cut.

In my opinion it is all hearsay and interesting from a historical point of view when one is having a conversation with someone else on card sharp methods.

Just a few more thoughts and opinion.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
tommy
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I think one the most interesting things that came from magic to be used at the card table, in relation to riffle shuffling, is not a technique but a principle, I know it as Endless Chain which was first introduced by Charles Jordan about 1919. (For a full description of this principle and its many ramifications, see Jordan's booklet, "Thirty Card Mysteries".) Or see Theodore Annemann's Miracles of Card Magic, The Ultra Find card trick, to get the idea of how it works. Which is where I first learnt about it. Its a tracking thing rather than a stacking thing. It’s a simple little thing worth knowing about anyway. I only mention it as it came from magic, its pretty rare for things from magic to go to the card table, or so I am told.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
bishthemagish
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And if I may add - then there is also culling from the discards or using the discards to make up a slug and culling and stacking from that. In a 5 card stud demo I use the triumph shuffle cull and stack to do that.

Five hands are dealt as an explanation of the old game 5 card stud - then as the cards are picked up (I remember a three of a kind that are just three cards in this first group of 5 hands) and put back on top of the deck. I shuffle up (using the triumph cull and stack) three of a kind that I make - cull from this slug of cards. I try to cull three of a kind - like 3 sevens or three fours rather than culling aces or face cards like Kings or Jacks.

I have played with this as a demo where I give audience members chips to bet on the other four hands.

Anyway it is a cool demo based on something Jack Pyle used to do in his act - only I use the triumph shuffle to get the hand.

I hope this helps.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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AMcD
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Just a few words about my manuscript, as many of you have contacted me about it this week (apparently you don't have something exciting to read for the holidays).

I'd say that half of the pages are now written. I still plan to finish it before the end of August. I'm slow, I know, but you should enjoy it because the time I need to do it Smile.

Thanks for asking me about it but, again, don't use the MC mailing system.
goatears
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I use the one in expert card technique
AMcD
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Guys,

Some news about my pamphlet/booklet/manuscript on "my" method of stacking.

I thought it would have been possible to finish it around August/September. But many things have gone bad for me.

I've then lost contact with some very knowledgeable people supposed to help me about that work. I simply haven't got a way to contact them anymore! And many of them have apparently decided to ignore me now. The problem is that some were supposed to bring me a nice hand!

Anyway, I now I've changed a bit the way it's gonna look like. I thought it would have been a great idea to write a book (yes a book) on the wide subject of stacking, from deep history researches to last riffle stocking methods. Information about stacking is now abundant but scattered in so many publications... it's something that I thought about this summer, just noticing that the original booklet table of contents was becoming longer and longer weeks after weeks... But it's now a project I can't do alone. So, with the guys still helping me, we have decided to be back to something much more easier and humble.

I just can tell you that something will be in print in October or November, if nothing bad happens. It won't be the nice stuff I've been dreaming about (just to give you an idea I had already written 26 pages on the sole subject of stacking vocabulary through the last centuries...) but anyway it's been a nice lesson for me for the future. I'm sorry about that last twist, because I've spent so much time on that project, but the best for me now is to stick to something more classic, like a simple booklet. Just a few weeks to wait for you then.

Again, I'm really sorry for the people supporting me on that project, but trust me, I'll do my best to offer you something nice. Needless to say that I've removed some people from my "allowed purchasers list". It's OK, you have the right to consider me as an idiot, but I'm not a sucker. Life is long guys and I'm much younger than many of you, you scored the first point but I'll get my revenge.

I have removed the possibility to PM me from here. But you can still join me from my website. But don't worry, the guys I'm complaining about know who they are, you have nothing to fear about been busted out of my list if you have done nothing to me, lol.

See you soon.
Maitre D
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What problems do you expect will be resolved by disabling your PM feature?
The Dowser
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Quote:
On 2010-10-12 00:18, AMcD wrote:
Life is long guys and I'm much younger than many of you, you scored the first point but I'll get my revenge.

"Much younger" is an understatement. Kid, you need to grow up. Nobody here has hurt you. You are hurting yourself with these childish tantrums and threats. "Revenge"? How can you expect anyone to take interest in anything you have to say when you keep posting this crap?
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