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jdmagic357
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On 2010-06-14 18:08, scottds80 wrote:
The thing is that the people who are selling magic only do to a minority of people who are genuinely seeking the mechanical principles of an effect. Whether it's because they want to perform it, or just because they can't sleep at night without knowing.

However, when the masked magician reveals it on prime time TV, lay audiences are drawn in and exposed to by a vast majority.


I guess you never saw the "TV Magic" infomercials, or those for Jaw Droppers?
Just cause they say it, doesn't make it true.
Dan Bernier
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A fellow never had problems with rats. One day he thought about putting out rat traps just as added security. Even though he had never saw a rat, his neighbours complained about having rat problems. He decided to put out several rat traps as a precaution. Suddenly, he was catching rats in the traps left and right. The fellow couldn't believe it. He decided to call the exterminator. The exterminator took one look at all the traps and said, "I see the problem here. Get rid of those, and you'll solve your rat problem.

The fellow looked at the exterminator strangely and asked how taking away all the traps would solve his problems. The exterminator replied back, "I said nothing about the traps, but the cheese seems to be attracting them. Get rid of the cheese and you'll have no more rats.

The fellow did just that, and all the rats never came back.

Be careful how you fight exposure. Fighting exposure can bring a lot of attention to the matter and only make the situation even worse.

The truth is, the biggest contributor's to exposure are those who release material to the general public, especially DVD's and ebooks. Too many magicians, creators, distributor's are trying to make a living off of selling magic to the public. Just because someone pays for it doesn't take away the fact that the magic has now been exposed. Exposure in magic has always been okay as long as the price is right.

The problem is a lack of respect for the art. I see no respect in producing tricks after tricks just to sell them for money. Magicians are ruining magic, not the common folk who puts stuff on Youtube. The people on Youtube were lured in with cheesey, overhyped marketing, and sometimes blatantly false advertising.

Let's talk about the real issue and stop blaming everyone else outside of our industry. We've been doing that for years and it's got us nowhere further for it. Again, you cannot expose something unless you allow others to view it. Once it has been sold, it has been exposed.

Want to stop exposure, stop magicians from releasing material to the general public. This is where the mighty dollar always seems to take precident though.
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Dan Bernier
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Quote:
On 2011-02-24 10:23, jdmagic357 wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-14 18:08, scottds80 wrote:
The thing is that the people who are selling magic only do to a minority of people who are genuinely seeking the mechanical principles of an effect. Whether it's because they want to perform it, or just because they can't sleep at night without knowing.

However, when the masked magician reveals it on prime time TV, lay audiences are drawn in and exposed to by a vast majority.


I guess you never saw the "TV Magic" infomercials, or those for Jaw Droppers?


There is no difference between Val making money by exposing magic on t.v than those who are constantly releasing material to the general public. Those who are selling magic are trying to sell to as many people as quickly as possible. They are not interrested to know who is buying their material. They are trying to provide an income for themselves and their families. Most of them don't perform professionally, so selling magic is their only means of income.

We, magicians have turned magic into a product that can be sold in several different forms to accomadate almost everyone out there. We expose magic to laypersons who in turn reveals the trick to their friends and youtube channel.

We can't always change other peoples thinking and ways, but we can always change ours.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
jdmagic357
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Great points once again Dan. Smile
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Pakar Ilusi
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Quote:
On 2011-02-24 11:02, Gospel Dan wrote:
A fellow never had problems with rats. One day he thought about putting out rat traps just as added security. Even though he had never saw a rat, his neighbours complained about having rat problems. He decided to put out several rat traps as a precaution. Suddenly, he was catching rats in the traps left and right. The fellow couldn't believe it. He decided to call the exterminator. The exterminator took one look at all the traps and said, "I see the problem here. Get rid of those, and you'll solve your rat problem.

The fellow looked at the exterminator strangely and asked how taking away all the traps would solve his problems. The exterminator replied back, "I said nothing about the traps, but the cheese seems to be attracting them. Get rid of the cheese and you'll have no more rats.

The fellow did just that, and all the rats never came back.

Be careful how you fight exposure. Fighting exposure can bring a lot of attention to the matter and only make the situation even worse.

The truth is, the biggest contributor's to exposure are those who release material to the general public, especially DVD's and ebooks. Too many magicians, creators, distributor's are trying to make a living off of selling magic to the public. Just because someone pays for it doesn't take away the fact that the magic has now been exposed. Exposure in magic has always been okay as long as the price is right.

The problem is a lack of respect for the art. I see no respect in producing tricks after tricks just to sell them for money. Magicians are ruining magic, not the common folk who puts stuff on Youtube. The people on Youtube were lured in with cheesey, overhyped marketing, and sometimes blatantly false advertising.

Let's talk about the real issue and stop blaming everyone else outside of our industry. We've been doing that for years and it's got us nowhere further for it. Again, you cannot expose something unless you allow others to view it. Once it has been sold, it has been exposed.

Want to stop exposure, stop magicians from releasing material to the general public. This is where the mighty dollar always seems to take precident though.


This is the rarely spoken truth about exposure.

Bravo Dan! Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
jdmagic357
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On 2011-02-25 00:09, Pakar Ilusi wrote:

This is the rarely spoken truth about exposure.



Untrue! This truth is spoken all the time. Problem is, few are listening.
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Pakar Ilusi
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On 2011-02-25 05:52, jdmagic357 wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-02-25 00:09, Pakar Ilusi wrote:

This is the rarely spoken truth about exposure.



Untrue! This truth is spoken all the time. Problem is, few are listening.


Not from my experience of it, honestly. Most focus on the "symptoms" like the Masked Magician Specials.

When the actual "illness" is the unconditional selling of Magic techniques to anyone and everyone if they are willing to pay for it.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
jdmagic357
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Reread what I wrote, and you will see we're in agreement. Another example of how the message gets lost in the interpretation.
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Andrew Zuber
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Okay, so where's the line in selling magic then? Look at the amount of material that Michael Ammar has released...and then the lectures he gives all over the world, exposing secrets. So by this argument (theoretically anyway, I'm not saying this is literally what you mean,) Michael Ammar is one of the worst offenders concerning magic exposure.

SOMEONE has to sell magic...otherwise the art will die. Imagine if Dai Vernon had never had students, never taught any of his material, Lewis Ganson had never written The Dai Vernon Book of Magic...imagine he'd kept everything to himself. Where would we be now? It's hard to say. There are a lot of creative minds out there who come up with a lot of creative things, but where do we draw the line?

When is it okay to release a book or a DVD, and when is it not? Or are you truly suggesting that people stop selling magic altogether? Have you ever bought magic? If so, you're contributing to this supposed issue.

I think this "problem" of exposure is often a case of magicians making mountains out of mole hills. No one comes to my show, sees the tricks I do, then goes home and buys magic DVDs to learn the secrets. Frankly, if they're THAT curious about it, then is that such a bad thing? I mean that's how I got into magic - I saw Denny Haney doing his card manipulations in the Palace at the Magic Castle and I said, "I've GOT to know how that's done." So I went out and learned it. I bought DVDs and books and took lessons. Then I emailed Denny and TOLD him what I'd done, because it's what got me started in magic.

Take a survey of working magicians today. Ask them how they got started - did they see a trick somewhere and want to learn it, so they bought a book, DVD or the trick itself? Or were they sitting around with a deck of cards and suddenly decided to make up a magic trick out of the blue?

Saying "stop magicians from releasing material to the general public" is saying: close down magic shops, shut down online distributors, and tell anyone who wants to get into magic that it's too late - they've missed the cutoff. Find a different hobby.

Then we can just sit back and watch our art slowly fade into nothing. Alternatively, define the requirements that should be met before something is sold to the public. Who is right to sell and who is wrong? How many hours must one have spent working on something before they can sell it? How many performances must it have endured? What boxes do they have to check before they can sell something?

I agree that there is a LOT of stuff being released. Frankly, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. The stuff that's rotten will fade away. The stuff that's good will stand the test of time. Little kids will continue to make "tutorials" on YouTube, magicians will continue to lose their minds over it, and the spectators will continue to be entertained despite our constant fear that we'll be exposed. Do I hate exposure on YouTube? You bet I do. Does it worry me or change the way I do my show? Not in the slightest. The vast majority of audiences do not know how tricks are done, and if I do something that fools someone so bad they've got to buy it or look it up, awesome. It means I've done my job so well that they left the show, drove all the way home and STILL couldn't get it off their mind. And that's a lasting impression I'm proud to leave.
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Pakar Ilusi
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On 2011-02-25 08:56, Andrewzuber wrote:
Okay, so where's the line in selling magic then? Look at the amount of material that Michael Ammar has released...and then the lectures he gives all over the world, exposing secrets. So by this argument (theoretically anyway, I'm not saying this is literally what you mean,) Michael Ammar is one of the worst offenders concerning magic exposure.

SOMEONE has to sell magic...otherwise the art will die. Imagine if Dai Vernon had never had students, never taught any of his material, Lewis Ganson had never written The Dai Vernon Book of Magic...imagine he'd kept everything to himself. Where would we be now? It's hard to say. There are a lot of creative minds out there who come up with a lot of creative things, but where do we draw the line?

When is it okay to release a book or a DVD, and when is it not? Or are you truly suggesting that people stop selling magic altogether? Have you ever bought magic? If so, you're contributing to this supposed issue.

I think this "problem" of exposure is often a case of magicians making mountains out of mole hills. No one comes to my show, sees the tricks I do, then goes home and buys magic DVDs to learn the secrets. Frankly, if they're THAT curious about it, then is that such a bad thing? I mean that's how I got into magic - I saw Denny Haney doing his card manipulations in the Palace at the Magic Castle and I said, "I've GOT to know how that's done." So I went out and learned it. I bought DVDs and books and took lessons. Then I emailed Denny and TOLD him what I'd done, because it's what got me started in magic.

Take a survey of working magicians today. Ask them how they got started - did they see a trick somewhere and want to learn it, so they bought a book, DVD or the trick itself? Or were they sitting around with a deck of cards and suddenly decided to make up a magic trick out of the blue?

Saying "stop magicians from releasing material to the general public" is saying: close down magic shops, shut down online distributors, and tell anyone who wants to get into magic that it's too late - they've missed the cutoff. Find a different hobby.

Then we can just sit back and watch our art slowly fade into nothing. Alternatively, define the requirements that should be met before something is sold to the public. Who is right to sell and who is wrong? How many hours must one have spent working on something before they can sell it? How many performances must it have endured? What boxes do they have to check before they can sell something?

I agree that there is a LOT of stuff being released. Frankly, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. The stuff that's rotten will fade away. The stuff that's good will stand the test of time. Little kids will continue to make "tutorials" on YouTube, magicians will continue to lose their minds over it, and the spectators will continue to be entertained despite our constant fear that we'll be exposed. Do I hate exposure on YouTube? You bet I do. Does it worry me or change the way I do my show? Not in the slightest. The vast majority of audiences do not know how tricks are done, and if I do something that fools someone so bad they've got to buy it or look it up, awesome. It means I've done my job so well that they left the show, drove all the way home and STILL couldn't get it off their mind. And that's a lasting impression I'm proud to leave.


First off...

Having students you picked (mentoring and apprenticeship) and selling magic for literally everyone in the world, are two very different things. Just thought I'd point that out.

Second...

It is great that you see it as you see it Andrew, it is your opinion and you're entitled to it for sure....

However, I'll give you a slightly different point of view. Here goes, if I were to follow your logic, we should not complain about The Masked Magician exposures then? He DOES bring interest to some viewers to start learning Magic.

Don't get me wrong....

I COMPLETELY AGREE, WHO DEFINES WHO CAN SELL OR WHO CANNOT? NO ONE.

Now, see the extension of that logic, WHO DEFINES WHO CAN EXPOSE? If Magic is being taught in the open already, what is wrong with the Masked Magician teaching it? Because he is giving it out for free? Not really. He got paid by the Production Company (or the TV Station) for his services, so he has every right to teach whomever or wherever he wants to, right?

Just as much right as Michael Ammar has to get paid to teach whomever and wherever e wants to, right?

What is the difference? The Masked Magician started on a small scale as do most Magc Shows. That it then became a worldwide phenomenon is what ALL SHOWS target to be. Meaning you can't fault it for having found a market and having some success... (It is shown in most countries as is evident with Magicians complaining in most countries... Smile)

The difference is intent? Valentino says he did it to further Magic just as every other Magician that has a TV Show says. Why is he wrong? Because to further Magic he showed the techniques in a Show which has a worldwide audience? Isn't that what Michael Ammar is doing, just on a smaller scale? People paying for Cable does not count as a paying Audience?

Because people are deemed "layman" they shouldn't be exposed to it? Isn't that what Magic Shops are doing?

I ask again, if it's ok to sell Magic through very Public means like Magic Shops, Seminars and the Net, why is The Masked Magician Exposure Shows deemed to be wrong? He gets paid selling Magic just like everyone else is...

Smile
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Dan Bernier
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Great points Pakar Ilusi!

There is absolutely no difference between Ammar and MM when exposing magic.

However, it becomes a matter of opinion as to who the worst offenders concerning magic exposure are. I would have to go with the person who is doing it the most, but you can't say one is okay and the other isn't when they are both doing the same thing. Ammar exposes magic in exchange for money. MM exposes magic for exchange of money.

There are even magicians who have websites that give away tricks for free. All you need to do is figure out who the Professor is. (lol) Like some can't figure out to google for the answer. (lol)
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jdmagic357
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On 2011-02-25 09:32, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
I ask again, if it's ok to sell Magic through very Public means like Magic Shops, Seminars and the Net, why is The Masked Magician Exposure Shows deemed to be wrong? He gets paid selling Magic just like everyone else is...

Smile


The exact point I have been making since first posting on this subject. Good to see people getting it. Smile
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Andrew Zuber
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I think it all boils down to the most powerful word in your post, Pakar: Intent.

Ammar LOVES magic, and he loves to teach. Yeah he's making money, but I truly believe his intent is to do good things for our art. I believe that with many of the magic producers and teachers. I don't believe it with ALL of them, certainly. Some are just out to make a quick buck (and magic ain't the way to do that, which is what I find funny.) You'll have about as much lucky cheating a slot machine in Vegas as you will seeing a healthy profit on a magic product if you don't have the extensive knowledge, performance experience and resources like successful producers do. You can hype garbage and it'll sell well at first, but you'll destroy your reputation in the process. Obviously people making rip offs aren't included in this, but they're not human anyway so I'm not counting them Smile

I'm not sure if there even is a "right" answer to this debate, but stopping the sale of magic to the public isn't a good solution to anything in my opinion. Again, the "point" may be that magic shops and Valentino are doing the same thing, but I do believe that the intent isn't exactly the same. You can claim it all comes down to the almighty dollar, but the magic shops I go into aren't just giving away the secrets to millions of people, and I whole heartedly don't believe that they would.

I think we're being a little broad in saying they're both doing it for money, because that's not really looking at the relationship between the consumer and the business. How many viewers would have directly paid money to their cable providers, specifically to watch the Masked Magician? I'm not talking about paying for the channel, I'm talking about paying for that one show. Now, how many consumers walk into a magic shop and pay for a specific item? Everyone that buys something. That said, the intent of a magic shop is to sell to individual customers who are typically magicians, thereby helping the art of magic to grow in a positive (usually) direction. The intent of a television network is to sell advertising time, and as long as people tune in they're happy. The intent falls to both the consumer and the business. Valentino wasn't selling his services to magicians; Fox gave him a check and he cashed it, not knowing WHO his audience was. Men, woman, young, old, magicians, lawyers, waiters, the unemployed...didn't matter, didn't care.

The amount of effort that goes into this is the other thing to take into account. Yes, there will always be the YouTube kids in their David Blaine phase exposing stuff online. They'll either grow up and grow out of it, or become the small percentage that stick with it, and grow up to realize that's NOT a cool thing to do. But clicking a link on your computer or sitting down to watch television is far more effortless than looking up a magic shop, paying money specifically for an item, learning it and performing it. We're dealing with two different groups of people here, and you can't entirely lump them together. Why do I think magic shops are a good thing? Because you must have the intent of wanting to perform magic in order to make the effort to go. Why do I think YouTube exposure and Valentino are bad? Because they're giving it away to an audience who merely needs to click a mouse or flip on the TV set to see it.

That said, I see no issue with selling magic to magicians. My problem is with those who are giving it out in such a way that it requires no effort on the part of the viewer...though as I said in my previous post, in the big scheme of things, when it comes to my act, Valentino and the YouTube twerps are the last of my worries. It's my Zarrow shuffle that needs all the help it can get Smile
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What was it that was paved with good intentions?
You know why don't act naive.
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I'm no fan of the masked one or the countless revealing youtube yahoo wazoos. However, some percentage of those exposed to those exposures, become interested in magic and pursue it further. Potentially becoming part of the next generation of creators, performers, collectors, etc... Again, I'm not condoning exposure, just saying..
jdmagic357
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On 2011-02-25 16:52, lebowski wrote:
I'm no fan of the masked one or the countless revealing youtube yahoo wazoos. However, some percentage of those exposed to those exposures, become interested in magic and pursue it further. Potentially becoming part of the next generation of creators, performers, collectors, etc... Again, I'm not condoning exposure, just saying..


Let the lay be enticed by good performances. We need not give away the store with the purchase of some milk.
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I agree, I wasn't condoning exposure.
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On 2011-02-25 16:52, lebowski wrote:
I'm no fan of the masked one or the countless revealing youtube yahoo wazoos. However, some percentage of those exposed to those exposures, become interested in magic and pursue it further. Potentially becoming part of the next generation of creators, performers, collectors, etc... Again, I'm not condoning exposure, just saying..


Hmmm. Sort of like some percentage of people watching a bullfight develop an interest in becoming veterinarians...
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Jim, that is hands down the most awesome comparison ever. Well done, sir. Smile
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jdmagic357
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On 2011-02-25 17:56, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
Hmmm. Sort of like some percentage of people watching a bullfight develop an interest in becoming veterinarians...


Apples and oranges. A better analogy would have been (people watching bullfights wanting to become bullfighters.) Apples and apples.
Just cause they say it, doesn't make it true.
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