But not an accurate analogy. Someone sees a kid butchering magic on YouTube (someone abusing a bull) and decides he wants to become the next Lance Burton (aka the veterinarian, who wants to HELP the bull.)

Thanks, Andrew, that is exactly what I was going for...

I do what I can.

No one is saying that we should stop buying magic, or that magicians and creator's should stop selling their idea's. What I am saying is, exposure is exposure. What I am saying is that if magicians are going to continue to whine and point fingers of blame, I believe the biggest contributor's to exposure are those who are selling to the general public. It seems though, that most don't want to deal with the real issue about exposure. They would rather just complain about it all the time.


Intent? Is that how we are going to decide if exposure is exposure or not? Oh, and I guess everyone believes that the MM and Ammar have two different intents. This is where things start to become hairy. If you really hate exposure then you should really look to the root of it. If you are not willing to except the fact that all magic being sold is done to make money then there are more gullible people than I thought. It's all about money. Selling tricks, routines, idea's, all to make money. There's the intent...to make money. The MM was asked to do what he does for money, Ammar sells tricks for money, both the same intent to me.

Maybe we can talk about what we believe to be good exposure and bad exposure, but until we realize that it's all exposure, we're just fooling ourselves in my opinion.

What Dan said.

I am also not saying we should not sell or buy Magic to the public at large. (It is too late to go back anyway...)

Just realize that it has consequences.

Regardless of good or bad intention...

The Masked Magician is one of them.

Anyway, I personally think it's too late to do anything anymore.

I wish it wasn't so but alas...

Seems to me that we have to play the game with the cards we are given. Going back a few years, television programs featuring magic often carried a declaration 'No camera tricks were used in the making of this film' or words to that effect. This was necessary because many of the effects could have been achieved that way, but were not. They were created before such 'camera tricks' were available. To my mind this was always very weak. 'I am going to show you something amazing that could have been achieved using method X, but it wasn't. I am using another method, so there'. Oops! Where's the 'magic' in that? OK so television, and video editing changed the nature of magic, and magicians learnt to cope with the new media.

Now we have to learn to amuse and amaze given video editing, cellphones, internet - including Youtube and public forums, Masked Magicians and so on.

The environment has changed. We are dealt a different hand. But the challenge is the same.

Twm

The more educated and sophisticated the target audience becomes, you have to adapt.

For example, with the Linking Rings trick, most adults know the principle behind the trick. So, if you perform that effect, your routine has to overshadow their knowledge of how it's done. When someone is not very good, all the informed audience would think about is the trick apparatus. A good performance leaves them with "I know how that's done, but, wow!, that was a great performance!"

Well, yes, I can enjoy a great linking rings routine just as I would enjoy great ballet. But neither are magic because I know how they are accomplished...

The Pendragons at their peak doing Metamorphosis is still magic for me. The execution was just perfect,and knowing how it was done didn't seem to detract in any way.

Michael Ammar is selling products to magicians. The Masked magician is beaming secrets into the homes of anyone watching that particular channel. To say they are the same is very disrespectful to Michael Ammar.

Not being disrespectful, but the point being made here exposure is exposure.

Unless of course Michael Ammar really stops and checks that everybody buying his DVDs are really Magicians.

It is because these infos are out there that The Masked Moron can even do his Shows.

No disrespect to Michael Ammar, again.

No disrespect is meant, only the truth. Exposure is exposure. When it comes to exposure, there is no difference between M.M and anyone else in the industry who sells tricks to the open public, including Ammar. It's nieve to think otherwise.

Ammar sells tricks to make money, just like many other magicians who jumped on the bandwagon. Everywhere you look the market is flooded with material. Everyone, including their cat has jumped on the bandwagon. Money has proven to not only be their motivation, but has also been the root to the exposure problem.

If we were to take a serious look at how magic is being sold today you'd see that who the ads are meant for, who they are trying to attract. Not only that, but look at how some are even marketing tricks. The magic industry has been flying under the radar of consumer laws for quite a while now. I can get into the issue about how many distributor's, and dealers are blatantly making false claims, and decietful marketing practices, but will save that for another thread.

No one seems to want to talk about the real issues though.

You can't say that what Ammar does is any different than what the Masked Magician does, other than the fact that the M.M has more exposure.

There is clearly a difference between Ammar & M.M. Clearly. Ammar still has exposure blood on his hands I.M.H.O. but there is clearly a difference. I'm not even gonna say what it is cause it's sooooooo clear. No, I'm not intentionally insulting you Dan.

I'm not insulted by your difference in opinion. There are clearly differences between M.M and Ammar, but I'm referring to exposure. They both expose magic. The exposure is the same. Reasons, motives, etc may be different, but exposure is exposure. No matter if you sell it, or if you reveal them on t.v. Like I said, M.M gets more exposure than Ammar. There are differences between the two people, but the exposure they both present is still exposure.

But, Dan, using your logic, no one could ever reveal how an effect is done without it being exposure. So the most secretive magician, telling his longtime protege in the secrecy of his study would be the same as the MM? How would magic be passed to new generations without exposure?

Seems we will need a new word if we insist on being draconian in the use of the one we have. To me, "exposure" as used by magicians regarding their secrets is rather meant to mean "blatant, disclosure of magic secrets without corresponding consideration or interest" or some better definition you can come up with.

Yes, technically they could be considered the same, but not for any useful purpose.

Jim

That's right! No one can reveal how a trick is done without first exposing the method. As far as the most secretive magician telling his longtime protege his secrets goes, yes, he's exposing the secrets to his protege. The MM exposes tricks to a far more audience, but Val says he does it to further the art of magic. We can choose to not believe him. But, why would we not believe him, but believe everyone else in the industry that's doing the same thing?

That's why I believe a more constructive discussion would be about what we believe to be good exposure and bad exposure.

Exposure, as it relates to magic means, "the practice of revealing the secrets of magic to non-magicians". Before any of us knew magic, we were non-magicians. Most online magic shops today cater to the non-magicians.

Of course for anyone to learn magic they must be exposed to the methods of how tricks are done. I'm not saying exposure is wrong. Exposure keeps are art alive and new.

Here's the real kicker when it comes to MM. I have heard many magicians talking about how they watched the MM on t.v, and voiced how angry they were with MM. However, there they are supporting the program by watching him on t.v, making sure to catch all his specials, only to then come on forums and complain about him.

I wouldn't be surprised if magicians made up the larger viewing audience of his show.

Nor am I by yours.

WOW!!!!
What a surprise, he's welcomed by the members of Tony Hassini' IMS,
http://www.imsindo.com/artikel/2011/mask......un-city/

and he shared his stage with (i believe) some Café members too,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k4tTYnGWV0&feature=related

He got a standing ovation!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k4tTYnGWV0&feature=related

Wow, the Indonesians must really love that Valentino/Masked Magician guy to give him a TV Special like that...

I just don't get it...