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Dan Bernier
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Times have indeed changed. many of the names mentioned would of frowned upon what is going on today. The internet brought in a whole new way to expose and market magic tricks. Instead of the big names standing up against such exposure, they decided to jump on the band wagon.

Why let all the little people make money off of selling tricks, or revealing a Bobo switch with a new routine. I remember when it all started. Some of the more bigger names in magic were against these new sites by unknown people selling tricks, or giving them away for nothing.

Ellusionist used to be heavily criticized in the begining for selling tricks to the open market. Then, those who did the complaining started their own websites to do the exact same thing.

That's the problem with ethics and such. They no longer exist when money is involved. Who can blame anyone. semi-pro, restuarant, and close-up magicians were starving for years because they loved performing magic. It only paid well to a very few. Now the doors are wide open, and even the resturant worker can make a pretty good living performing and selling magic.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
Stefmagic
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Quote:
On 2010-06-19 14:49, Gospel Dan wrote:
The internet brought in a whole new way to expose and market magic tricks. Instead of the big names standing up against such exposure, they decided to jump on the band wagon.
This is exactly my thought! We know exposure and pirating exist, so Why the BIG names of today magic don't stand up against it ? Why BIG names in Magic decided together that the next great trick or the next book or DVD will be sold differently from the way it is today ? It's not to late to change but it need will by everyone and the desire to make our craft better.

The problem today is that we don't talk about "magic craft" anymore but about "magic market", money is more important than the craft we love! I read an other post that Richard Osterlind decided that he'll never do another DVD again! that's the start! Here a BIG names that decided to do something about pirating! Congratulation Mr. Osterlind.

I remember days where the only way to get ideas and material from a performer was to go to a lecture or convention.
Mr. Mystoffelees
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Well, but wait a minute. Did Mr. Osterlind create his own dilemma by not restricting who could buy his DVD?
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Dan Bernier
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Quote:
On 2010-06-19 16:16, mandarin wrote:
Well, but wait a minute. Did Mr. Osterlind create his own dilemma by not restricting who could buy his DVD?


Is it a trick question. Smile

If not, my answer would be yes.

here is a twisted example. The more guns that are allowed to be out in the hands of the public, the more gun related crimes there will be.

The more magicians release DVD to the open market, advertised all over the internet, the more chances of pirating will happen.

If you leave your valuables in your car, and leave your car unlocked in an area you are unfamiliar with. In a place where just anyone could come by, and someone steals stuff from your car, you have to blame yourself as well for not locking your car in the first place.

Let's say you did lock your car, but someone still broke in. At least you took enough common sense on your part to at least lock your doors. The next step would be to not park your car in that area anymore. If all you do is whine and cry about the person who broke into your car, and do nothing on your part to prevent it from happening again, then part of the responsability falls onto your shoulders.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
Mr. Mystoffelees
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Not a trick question, Dan... I really feel magicians who put their work out on DVD or easy download should realize what will happen to it. I certainly do not condone what is going on, but we live in a world of "finders keepers". If I had anything of value to offer to the magic community, I would put it in a 500 page tome that only the most serious students of magic would ever get through. DVD's are meat for the piranha now days...

Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Pakar Ilusi
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I will say it again.

We want to buy and sell secrets but we don't want exposure.

Therein lies the dilemma.

I've no answers.

Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2010-06-19 21:35, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
...

We want to buy and sell secrets but we don't want exposure.

...


What's with this "we"?

Performers want to get paid for doing shows. Magic (using the mechanics of guile to elicit delight for an audience) is a performing art. The business of making tools of the craft available is very awkward when what's being sold is not the property of those who wish to do the selling. This business gets even more awkward when the target market is the public at large.

IMHO it might help to lose the language about "secret" and any other branding which suggests there is something illicit about the items one can buy. One could just as well ask if an item has any value whatsoever to the inventor who would sell it in an open market rather than simply use it in their work and pass it on as a trust to those who they feel it would benefit.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
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I prefer the "passing" of secrets as opposed to the sale of them.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mr. Mystoffelees
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" it might help to lose the language about "secret"..."

How 'bout "tricks of the trade"...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Jonathan Townsend
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Mardarin, I like the direction you are working toward in this.
Since most here are not in the business of performing, our trade - it's more like "latest clever tricks from (insert brand name here)" ?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Servante
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I've been thinking about this. Jonathan's got a good point to follow. If they're not secrets...they're skills.
It's like, let's say, the makeup artist who can build prosthetic noses and chins...create fanciful characters for movies and television and stage. We say, "Wow, how did he do that?", though we know how...vaguely.
The point is, I guess, we appreciate the art with which the skills are performed, for we are entertained by them...though not all people in the audience WANT to be makeup artists...or magicians.

Or painters. We can admire what Rembrandt paints...and we know how to paint, more or less...but it is the talent...and the skill...and the art...with which he painted it that gives it value.
But if he wrote about it and called it his "secret," we might spend entirely too much time squinting at the painting under a microscope to reveal it.

So, yes, perhaps if we no longer call them secrets, no one will care to suss them out.
mormonyoyoman
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Quote:
On 2010-06-19 08:13, Stefmagic wrote:

Richard Osterlind wrote a post about pirating DVD but by producing so much DVD, mr Osterlind make a lot of money (the reason he produced them) but also open himself to exposure and pirating! If you don't want so much pirating, you only produced limited DVD and you sell them underground. that way, you limited the risk.


Yikes! Do you have any idea of what you're saying, or how offensive this would be to law-abiding citizens?
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2010-06-20 21:03, mormonyoyoman wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-19 08:13, Stefmagic wrote:

Richard Osterlind wrote a post about pirating DVD but by producing so much DVD, mr Osterlind make a lot of money (the reason he produced them) but also open himself to exposure and pirating! If you don't want so much pirating, you only produced limited DVD and you sell them underground. that way, you limited the risk.


Yikes! Do you have any idea of what you're saying, or how offensive this would be to law-abiding citizens?


I'm pretty sure he meant "without advertising in public, including sites like this, in person and only to those who he feels would keep his work safe" - ie what some call the magic underground.

Think "need to know" when you discuss a trick with someone and you're on the way toward a more safe magic community.

The internet publication of works by folks other than the copyright holders are, IMHO, a symptom of the secret-disappointment-feeling cheated cycle folks go through while seeking "that trick which will make me..." item in the market.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
mormonyoyoman
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I'm not sure, Jonathan. He sounded to me very much like the inhuman statement of "Look at how she dresses. She deserved to get raped." For goodness sake, let's blame the victim instead of the monsters!

*jeep!
--Grandpa
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
mormonyoyoman
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Quote:
On 2010-06-19 16:31, Gospel Dan wrote:

here is a twisted example. The more guns that are allowed to be out in the hands of the public, the more gun related crimes there will be.


A false syllogism at best. This causes the rest of your argument (Anyone who puts out a DVD deserves to be ripped off) to be false.

And who's the nut who is claiming that Richard, Michael, etc are rich? Copperfield, yeah - he has an island. But where did the nut get his facts?

*jeep!
--Grandpa
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2010-06-20 22:36, mormonyoyoman wrote:
I'm not sure, Jonathan. He sounded to me very much like the inhuman statement of "Look at how she dresses. She deserved to get raped." For goodness sake, let's blame the victim instead of the monsters!

*jeep!
--Grandpa


Grandpa - you might be surprised at what people believe and say in some places.

The strategy of blaming the victim for the crime is a tried and true method of keeping some discussions from happening.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
aradia
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Quote:
On 2010-06-20 22:36, mormonyoyoman wrote:
I'm not sure, Jonathan. He sounded to me very much like the inhuman statement of "Look at how she dresses. She deserved to get raped." For goodness sake, let's blame the victim instead of the monsters!

*jeep!
--Grandpa

I find it moderately amusing that you point out a false syllogism, and yet just prior you make an appeal to emotion. Pirates are hardly on the same level of monstrosity as rapists. But ok, I'll take the rape tack:

If everyone knows that going out with a certain individual will result in being raped, and you go out with him, and he rapes you -- yes, some of the responsibility is on you. Sorry, but it's true. Each person is responsible for his/her own actions. If the consequences of an action are known with any certainty whatsoever, then one has very little basis on which to complain if one chooses to engage in that action. But don't conflate taking responsibility for one's own actions with taking responsibility for someone else's actions.

Guess what? Books and DVDs get pirated. If someone doesn't realise that, they are painfully naive. If you put out a book or DVD, there is a very real possibility that it will be pirated. If the consequence is unappealing, do not engage in actions which can (and likely will) lead to such a consequence.

Or, to paraphrase: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
Pakar Ilusi
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Won't go with the rape analogy here. It's apples and durians really...

Not directing this to anyone in particular.

This much is true, if you don't realize that today in 2010, that your Published work will be pirated and distributed on the Net, then you're just willingly closing your eyes to quite a well known fact. Burying your head in the sand won't make the danger disappear.

Don't publish if you don't want to be pirated at all.

At least not now, hope it's remedied in the future...

Just my take on it...

Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Mr. Mystoffelees
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Agreed, Pakar! And, if that meant that lots fewer magicians tried for the gold with DVD'S and the like, I would posit that things would be lots better! More of a market for good magicians, since the run of the mill would not be there, and magic would be "magical" rather than everyone knowing the secrets which reduces it to theater, or worse...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Whit Haydn
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Quote:
On 2010-06-21 17:38, mandarin wrote:
Agreed, Pakar! And, if that meant that lots fewer magicians tried for the gold with DVD'S and the like, I would posit that things would be lots better! More of a market for good magicians, since the run of the mill would not be there, and magic would be "magical" rather than everyone knowing the secrets which reduces it to theater, or worse...


I suspect that the mediocre will rule, and the "good magicians" will simply no longer find it worthwhile to create great effects and publish them. People will just stop sharing.
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