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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Or how you introduced it to them.
Read some Eugene Burger books... you'll be glad you did!
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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powerwords New user Indonesia 73 Posts |
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On 2010-06-22 07:17, Dr Spektor wrote: And. "The book of thoth"- by Stephen Minch
BE GOOD, if you can't then BE CAREFUL, if it's hard then BE BAD!!!
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
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On 2010-06-22 09:28, powerwords wrote: Best twenty one card trick ever in that tome.
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
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On 2010-06-22 13:29, gaddy wrote: Its true! And its the only one anyone should do... and you can adopt it for regular playing cards.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
For the record, I am loving this thread!
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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LarsRuth Loyal user Frankfurt, Germany 212 Posts |
Is there an e-book version available? My favorite Black Jack/21 Card trick is still Tony Chris' Crossroads.... I love it! But with Tarot cards? That sounds pretty challenging...
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Tony Chris V.I.P. Vancouver, Canada 714 Posts |
Thank You so much Lars, I appreciate it.
Paul, Tarot magick effects compose some of my strongest bizarre routines. I use them extensively in my magick performances. Always have always will. They are in the end, pieces of cardboard waiting to take on the life you enchant them with. I do many psychic entertainment gigs throughout the year as well where I am only giving tarot readings or palmistry readings and I incorporate no magic at all. They are in the end, simply tools for the magician or diviner. Nothing more and nothing less. Respectfully, Tony
As magicians we create what onlookers call magic. If they truly believe in what we have created for them to witness then magic is real!!!
- TONY CHRIS, A.K.A. Zany Zack http://www.tonychris.com |
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handa Inner circle Pittsburgh, PA 1357 Posts |
In my Presentation Companion, I include a section on lessons learned the hard way. One portion of it includes me putting the tarot cards aside for several years because of an uncomfortable connection of the cards with terrorism.
Remember the DC sniper and the leaving of the death card at the scene of the shootings? After two public incidents where people linked the cards to the sniper and not anything else, I decided to let things cool. I still use them, but pick and choose my situations very carefully as I've learned a bit about offending others' sensibilities during this time. I have also totally changed my introduction of the cards to acknowledge/create the history/mythos that I want the audience to buy into, and take them down the path that I want them to explore. They may run off in another direction, but it is rare that they stray too far from where I want them to go. I still use the same deck. It is an Italian/Latin-influenced that I picked up at The Museum Company a few years ago. The cards are of a heavy stock and about the size of a theatre ticket. They were well worth the inflated gift shop price of $30 for as much as I use them. Chris |
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William Draven Elite user Las Vegas, NV 486 Posts |
Tarot cards, especially when marketed by modern big name companies, printing them on modern presses in mass quantity is as Tony stated, nothing more than pieces of cardboard with pretty pictures and designs printed on them. I think it's only in the minds of people who are exposed to the cards that they take on a different meaning.
Tarot cards are so rich in symbolism and their basic meanings so vague they can be applied to anyone universally when they are used for their intended purpose. That being divination. When I read for people, I always tell them the cards can't predict the future, they can only provide you additional, possible new insight on a subject you already know the answers to. Tarot cards when used for Bizarre magic can add the extra punch a routine needs, just on virtue that your using the cards that have something of a mythos built up around them over the course of the last couple thousand years or so. It is not surprising that we as magicians can manipulate the cards to say anything we want them to by the same forces, controls, shuffles, and cuts we'd use on a normal deck of cards, and perhaps it's the built up preconceived notions that these oracle devices are able to deliver sagely information to the seeker that blinds them to this very critical fact. Obviously there will be those people who are purists who believe that the use of the cards to do anything other than divine answers is blasphemy. They'll protest the act, and accuse you of tampering with powers that you don't understand. I personally would consider these people and their objections to be in large a minority to the overall reactions you'll encounter during the length of your performances. I'd take these complaints with a grain of salt had I be you. Say what you will to pacify those who feel the need to vocalize their objections, or even consider restricting the use of the cards to a more bizarre effect, instead of just the simple replication of a classic card plot using Tarot instead of a normal deck. The purists may be less offended that way. But I digress, that's just a sidetracked train of thought. I say do what you will, and don't sweat the details too much. They are after all only cards. All the best to you, William Draven |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Eugene Burger was mentioned earlier. I’ve loved his routine, I cannot recall if it was called “The Star” or not, but it was a routine using tarot. I first saw the routine on an early Stephen’s video tape that Eugene did. Wonderful, full of theater. (I do believe it is published in one of his books, I don’t have them where I am at the moment and don’t want to give a bad reference.)
About 2000 or so, Eugene was performing in Salem, a public show in a very real New Age community. And I heard the beginnings of a story I had heard oh so many times from the tape. I perked up to watch not only the routine, but the reactions of those in attendance. Eugene performed the routine, but used regular playing cards for it. I was confused. I questioned why he would do that, David (also a member here) was there as well, he had no idea why the substitution took place as this seemed a very ideal situation for the original presentation. But as I thought on it, it may not have been ideal because of how some might take the handling and destruction of the cards. Later I spoke with Eugene about this and he said something I found very interesting. He had stopped using tarot cards. There were implications attached to using those cards, not from just from those who use those cards, but from many people. Comments had gotten back to him, and he considered them and how opinions to affect his work, so he removed them. (Ask him about this, he could explain his decision better than anyone else can.) As for something “only” being a piece of paper, a piece of metal, a piece of clay or stone, or even a piece of cloth, that is an ignorant place to come from . It is only a “piece of…” to those who do not associate either personal meaning, or believe that others may attribute personal meaning to the object. What kind of reaction would those you know have if someone tore up the picture of their child, burned their nation’s flag, or disrespected a symbol or icon of their faith, just for the sake of “entertaining”? That said, there are accepted traditions that utilize tarot cards (what this thread is about) for “ceremonial magick” (look at books on the subject, Tyson comes to mind as having recently written on this). My belief is that if they are handled with respect and in correct context, there is no issue. Of course, there are exceptions, like Jeff McBride. But then Jeff is a special case, he is a highly respected member of several communities. Tony |
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Logan Five Inner circle Northern California 1434 Posts |
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On 2010-06-22 15:29, William Draven wrote: The reason that their mass-marketed is because there very popular these days. My Universal Waite Deck from US Games Systems is probably one of the better known decks. Been reading that deck off and on for over twenty-years. So what that it's mass-marketed? It still retains it's symbolism, that's what counts. If you really feel that way my friend about the tarot..please stick to your card tricks, and stop doing readings. Leave the readings for the pros and the very talented amateurs who believe in what their are doing.
Self concept is destiny..
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
I predict this thread is going to turn nasty, and quick...
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
To be clear, this is the comment I was remarking on:
Quote:
Tarot cards, especially when marketed by modern big name companies, printing them on modern presses in mass quantity is as Tony stated, nothing more than pieces of cardboard with pretty pictures and designs printed on them. I think it's only in the minds of people who are exposed to the cards that they take on a different meaning. Tony |
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William Draven Elite user Las Vegas, NV 486 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-06-22 19:23, Janus109 wrote: Please, with all do proper respect, refrain from telling me what I should or shouldn't do based only off of a single paragraph of text. You don't know me as a person, or as a performer, (for what I can tell)and I honestly doubt my best interest is in your mind when you made that statement. To directly answer you; No, I will not just stick to my card tricks. I quite frankly enjoy doing readings for people who are looking to be entertained and willing to pay good money for their experience, for all things considered little to no effort on my part. Besides, to back up my point of not knowing me, traditional card tricks don't work well within the structures of my normal act anyways. I will be strait with you. I don't believe in the "power of the cards" anymore than I believe in Santa Clause. I'm a skeptic. If it's a crime to think with the mind that we were born with, question everything we don't understand, and demand proof to back up claims and accusations, then sir I am the most offending soul alive. Quote:
On 2010-06-22 19:23, Janus109 wrote: Again, with all do proper respect, No. I simply will not. I think there is a degree of absurdity that comes with the belief that licking crystals can heal you of your ailments as much as a single deck of playing cards can script, alter, or change your future. Being a magician yourself, I would have expected you to not be such a mark. However that being said, the one thing I won't do is demand that you to change your beliefs. If you honestly think that a single deck of playing cards is super charged with the cosmic powers of fate then all the more power to you. You see, this world is big enough, there are enough people in it who are interested in readings that I think we both can prosper without so much as even crossing paths. I could tell you to get your head out of the clouds, but that would do as much good as you telling me to leave the readings to the "pro's". I don't think this thread will turn ugly. I won't allow it, and if it does it won't be by my hand. As this thread is set up to discuss the pros and cons of using a Tarot deck for the presentation of magic tricks, I'll recommend that we return to that subject. I welcome anyone who so wishes to engage me on my personal, theological, or other beliefs to do so in private. My private message box is usually empty here, and I do love a good debate with someone who can intelligently defend their position with respect to my own. I would also like to mention that baring a gig, or something else of extreme importance, my response time to private messages is rather fast. Otherwise can we please keep the personal attacks to a minimum, show a little more respect for each other (especially since we don't really know -who- it is we're talking with on here, exceptions aside), and return this thread to it's regularly scheduled conversation? Thank you in advance for your kind understanding. Respectfully, Draven |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
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On 2010-06-22 19:41, gaddy wrote: 100% correct. You nailed that Gaddy, but then again, you are a reader. Note to self, get head out of the clouds, stop licking crystals with the lights on, someone is peeking. Thank goodness the world is big enough for us all, even people like me... And no, I don't take offense to the comments here as I don't know -WHO- made them, I just have the words to go on, and they contradict each other. This post has Tony's Seal of Approval :nose: |
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Gordon Special user Chicago 692 Posts |
Well, Payne, they might have originally been used for game playing but in popular culture they have long lost that association. So while it might feel good to be historically correct, that doesn't change how people will, and do, perceive the cards.
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Thanks Gordon!
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Logan Five Inner circle Northern California 1434 Posts |
No William, you go right ahead and do whatever it is you do. The magic police will not stop you.
I am not going to respond to your boneheaded post. I see what type I am dealing with here. Nor are you going to suck me into a " believer vs cynic " debate either..been down road a million times before lol. I have better things to do with my time, like drinking ayahuasca or doing a deck clearing ritual with my Universal Waite deck. Rick
Self concept is destiny..
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William Draven Elite user Las Vegas, NV 486 Posts |
Since Tony's called me into check for sparking fights, Please allow me to apologize for any hard feelings that my post may have caused. I mean to draw into attention that there are other alternative beliefs out there (such as crystal magick), and while they are indeed important to those who follow them, I myself have my own set of beliefs that may be in contradiction.
Despite not holding or sharing similar beliefs I in no way mean to belittle or condescend on anyone for their personal beliefs. In the same motion though, I do wish to make it clear that I don't agree with a lot of the new age material that is out there. I have my beliefs, you have yours, and I'm happy with that. That should have been the message you should have taken away from my post. Not that I'm a cold hearted adamant making fun of someone for something they have faith in. I'd advocate here for an "edit" button to help correct some of the offensive material in my original statement, to ease tensions in a show of good faith but alas, we don't seem to have one of those on this forum. So allow me to, at the least, retract my statement in good faith, and hope we can all proceed on in a constructive manor. Tony, will you accept my apology for offending your beliefs? |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
In part this is what I sent, I feel it might do some good here as a post for the general membership:
In the spooky forum we have practicing Voodons, Wiccans, Ceremonial Magicians, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Atheists. We all agree to disagree and accept each other's viewpoints as equal to our own, at least in our dealings with each other. We exist in harmony in this section of the Café. Tony |
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