Following on from the thread about Kondini and his close call in Cambridge I thought I would open this thread to let some people share their thoughts about what happened. Also if they too have had anythning like this happen then please feel free to share.

My motivation is that Kondini is one of the best, if not the best. I am not good enough to tie his boot laces. The actions that took place in Cambridge were uncalled for and worrying.

1) It can damage an EA's reputation, worse
2) It could damage their healh.

What if someone without the skill set got challenged? How long until someone goes and has a heart attack out there?

Over the top? Maybe, then again, maybe not...

...The reason I am posting is because we need to have this debate. If a novice is out there and gets challenged (it may not be by the crew from Cambridge, it could be someone else) and then that Novice goes and gets hurt...

1) S/He is in hspital,
2) Major bad press,
3) Gigs dry up becasue people will not book escape artists
4) Insurance goes up / income goes down
4) Escapology dies as an at form.

Ok, now IF you know for sure (100% prove it, they have confessed etc) then feel free to name them. If you are not 100% sure then please don't. Given what happened the last thing we need is someone being named in error.

Also, a quick request, if we can keep the posts just on the topic of what happened and the disruption caused to you and not have it go like the bad old days (and not reopen any old wounds) then so much the better.

Ok, over to you guys.

Perhaps novices shouldn't be doing challenges?

Hi Stuart, before the assumption of fact.
How about these few questions.
What makes you think it's real?
Why aren't there photos of the challengers?
Are there any websites where the challengers photographic or video proof of the event may be posted.
If the challengers wanted a win situation, then they would have put a neck chain once around the neck and padlocked it firm, they didn't and it was slipped.

Ian

And how do you get out of tightly-fastened, adjustable handcuffs without lock manipulation implements; by 'brute force?'
Skeptical minds want to know.

You all seem to know my bussiness better than me !

don't presume, or assume.

Two people on here who post often are in receipt of the full facts, if you are not then its because you are not entitled to the full facts.

A small ammount of knowledge breeds stupidity,,,1) There was no challenge in the true sense of the word challenge. 2)I never started the thread devoted to my own stupidity. 3) The inside info is regards to the bussiness side of showbussiness of which those posting above seem to know nothing. 4)If its not posted on the net its not real (What a tosser) I work 32 weeks a season, have done so for over 30 years, average of 125 escapes in total each year and that's since I cut my work down by a third!!! How many of them get on the net !

If you doubt anything research your subject first.

The booklet put out by Allen Burford (Around 1947) Lists 137 methods of escape useing no picks, keys, shimms, hacksaws or boltcroppers,,,how did escapologists ever manage before Cannons,Davenports etc etc etc came on the scene ?

Look at some of the Steve Baker DVD`s, read Devals methods if your not with it from this info then give up.
Jonny Eagle did 15 escapes a day, seven days a week, had no access to gimmed cuffs or anything and would have refused buying or in his words wasteing money on rubbish. He got his chains from scrapyards and his padlocks from Woolworths, he would be chained up and manhandled by bare knuckled gypsy fighters who had no intention of him getting out,,,,but he did,,,and every time. Think about it.

Help has been sort after regards my cock up at Cambridge,,,,The British Ring & IBM are a waste of space, Equity in their words have logged it, CHAINS however are looking from the legal aspect and are prepared to take action if they can (Three of their members have also been stitched up in this way).

Forget the escapes, the escapologist and look to the future of the bussiness.

Franchise is where its going with big bucks behind it,,,Showtime Icecream saturated cover in the UK, The Sheep Show proberly more than three units on the go have put Farmyard Frolics out of work (And this is an Australian Company)Climbing frames are now being franchised, P&J,Bouncy Castles,Magicians so why not escapologists.

The above paragraph sums up the reasons behind the problem at Cambridge, I will not state the names of the people involved for obvious reasons, but once more, those entitled to know,,,know. If your not one of them, Tough. Carry on making up your own life from the planet Zogg or better still try doing the job rather than being just another armchair ea.

I will not comment further here on this thread but I really thought that most of the people who post here had knowledge of the craft,,,Im amazed.

As Ken Brooke often said,,,in entertainment there are sayers and doers,,,the doers will never be sayers and the sayers will never be doers,

Ken.

Hi Ken,

Totally respect your views about escape artists. I too agree that it is possible to escape without using any special tools or gimmicked locks, these new things that came out, only make life easier for everyone and put performance into more entertaining and enjoyable.

But solely on escape, I believe that there is a lot of ways to escape using real stuffs around the place. Before machine, there bound to be human work. (Most of us is too driven by the technology that we forget that people eat raw food in the past before there is cooked food)

Anyway back to the topic, I believe that all escape artist, whether real or fake, should know their stand. If I am solely an entertainment escape artist and knows nothing or little about real escaping, forget about being challenged and even if people start calling you a p*ssy, they can only call you that, they can't slice your meat off from you, next day is still a better day.

If you are a real escape artist that knows your knuckles from inside, I still feel that you shouldn't be pushed by people to do things that is not worth it. Let say they mentioned about media, press and money, so there is motivation to do it, then I will say, why not, set down a date, tell them they can build a *** stage, have all the tons of media they have, put on newspaper if they want, and you will entertain them, if they don't do anything regarding the media that attracts you, you can simply tell them to !@#$ off as you are busy doing shows for people that pay for your art and not just to prove they are right.

So if its worth it and they go down to bring everything to you, media and money, then prove yourself to be worth those money and you won, of course, presume you can really handle the locks and chain.

There are a lot of **** heads out there that only like to trash artists, magicians, musicians, etc. Not just escape artists, but if they really want, they must have the power and money to prove it, media, press records etc. or else, I don't think we should even bother to entertain these people.

As often as we know, in all events, there is security to uphold any thing that will happen that day, so if these **** heads came around and call you names, just call the securities, no point having mouth war with them, stay calm, call for police and there is nothing they can do.

As for me myself, a lot of times, people does ask me if I can escape from home or locks if I get locked out, I told them its very hard, because escape artists are like locksmith, we need tools to do the escape, whether is it special or tools that can be found, because in real life, its not easy to find a solid and hard enough wire on the warehouse or room to pick the *** lock.

You can tell the world you are a genius in something, but you can say its all for entertainment, lying or not, its up to anyone to decide after they see your show.

Larry

If you're talking about the locksmith's equivalent of "improvised munitions," that possibility I can buy (since it involves creating a makeshift implement).
If you're talking forcing a closely-fastened S&W over the hands, or breaking them open by brute strength, using no object for leverage, I must remain skeptical.
If you're talking about some other, obscure technique entirely, I just have to say, "Show me."

No tapdance just fact, I have nothing to prove to anyone here, if you do it you will know what its all about.

No obscure anything,,,in the past one on one teachings were made with practice any escape even useing gaffed gear but when you practice try and do it without the use of the gaff.
Bakers swan song is done with just a piece of rope.
If you handle assistants enough then you control them in order to gain advantage over the situation. No its not an ideal situation but sadly over the years of doing it the knowledge can and will save the day.

Why do I think much of this very common knowledge is falling on deaf ears !
Is it no wonder that some of our best have been hounded from these boards,,,our loss.

The finest cuff man who made his name from cuff escapes alone should, but will not visit here. Nick Jansen with assistant Chris Gower to me are the tops in this type of work, they did it for a living, for real people.

I couldn`t give a toss whether I convince anyone here or not, you don`t book me and are of no benefit to those coming along. My mistake was to outline a mistake I made for the benefit of others on the way up, to pass on details as to the way things are going in the escape world here in the UK, that was it.

Ken.

Well I aprecite the info Ken - but then I am in the UK and know you. You don't bull-shoot anyone (well not whilst off stage any way). Oh there was that one time that you and Mr Lesley got me.

Actuially I have not heard from Curtis for a long time - he doesn't seem to post here anymore. IS that you are meaning when you said the "finest cuff man".

TTFN

Ken,

I have the utmost respect for you and your work. I firmly believe that you are one of the people here who should be listened to due to your many years of real experience in the business. I have no criticism for you as I was not there for the event, and who am I to judge you (or anyone else) anyway.

I can state that I am glad I was not in your position that day. I may have been able to get out by brute force as you did, but also I may not have.

I have been known to do things to prove to myself (not anyone else) that I can.

In college I took challenge bets I had no business making. I was far from skilled and relying on simple trickery. If I had come across anyone who knew what they were doing I'd have been screwed. So what I did was for fun and money. I got both.

The point in the beginning is well taken. There are people out there who feel that one or two gimmicks make them ready to do anything. Put in your situation all they would do is at best make a fool of themselves, and at worst get a trip to the hospital.

I don't think there is anything a more experienced performer like yourself can do to prevent inexperienced idiots from trying anything. As the former Governor of Minnesota once said... "You can't legislate stupidity".

As much as I enjoy stopping people from getting hurt, or making our profession look bad, there is really little we can do.

Certainly not ........


.... especially in Amercia there would not be enough room in the prisons (well come to that the same over here! Id be one of the first in!)

I seem to have come across a little harsh but I have a passion for what I do and have earnt a reasonable living from this biz.

I don't take fools lightly and owe everything to those who have gone before me.

When it comes to stateing facts I speak from experience only so those who follow don`t make the same stupid mistakes that I have made in the past. I remember not so long ago now how I was castigated basicaly in the same way for not giving my method of escape from the Fenton,,,,only one other person knows of my method Mick Hanzlik who I respect and know will keep my secret. No, as ea`s we have no God given rights to others methods or material, its called respect.

This is my full time job, I pay my taxes from it have brought my kids up from it so that is more than enough for me.

So when others start speaking from their armchairs and telling me to verify this, prove that etc etc it gets my goat up.

Some here post on every escape they do !!! Haha, this proves without doubt they are pretenders to the art !! Nothing wrong with the historians, amateurs, enthusiasts etc at all but please don`t preach to me about that which you know nothing of.

Would I try and tell Mick how to locksmith ? Of course not.

Once more all of us should look back in order to progress forward, those in the past (Including Harry) Gave us the firm foundations we work from today.

One person who has taken oh so much stick from other "entertainers" mainly behind closed doors is Hans Moretti, this man to me would dwarf Houdini had he been around then >>>> See that`s just my opinion, yes and Im entitled to it,,we are all entitled to our own opinions but to castigate in print is not the way.

Once more I apologise for getting stroppy but some things really peeeee me off.

Ken.

Hans Moretti is a god!

Dang I have only seen him on TV but FCUK me .... what an act.

I tell you what Ken if you spoke German and we 5 inches taller one would think you and he were brothers .... BUT we all know you are a directly related to Mr Wlesh-Boy Harry Knight ... the claim being that you are his Dad (although you don't look old enough) .... well that is the rhoumour anyway (No idea how that got started

Does anyone have any footage of Hans - I have seen the foilloing:- His Cross bow over the shoulder shootiung at his wife (Ken is that righ his wife .... was she called Elan or something? - not sure why you would know I'm sure others do as well), the cross bows firing at targets that triggered more corssbows and end up shooting apples of each oterhs heads, his fantatic "sword box" routien with the costume change (didnt think much of his clown make up though! ) and some USD SJ form a buring rope (i think??). I am sure he did lot sof other stuff as well.

I just wish I could have met him or seen him live!

Is his son still performing under the Moretti name?

TTFN

Back to the grind stone ... erm I mean wife

What happened in Cambridge is known only to a few folks that really need to know. I'm not one of them but I have no reason to doubt what Ken says.

I'll be honest, at first I thought that maybe this was one of Ken's professional "manipulations of the truth", but since a brief exchange of emails I'm sure that this is legit.

One thing Ken did tell me about was one method of escaping cuffs with no keys or picks. It's not easy and it hurts like hell, but it is possible and it works.

I had to use this method on the weekend, one of my gaffed cuffs jammed and I couldn't get it open. So because I've taken what Ken's said seriously I now have all my cuffs put on, gaffed or otherwise, as Ken instructed. Because I'd done this I was able to free myself from the jammed cuff and in the process save myself from being quite seriously hurt.

So first a massive thank you to Ken for not keeping that info to himself. You saved my skin.

Second, and I know it's always said but make sure you have a backup plan. Even when using gaffed stuff... Or maybe that should be especially when using gaffed stuff. The gaff can go wrong.

I wouldn't want to rely on this method to escape every pair of cuffs I get put into, but I do now have a backup plan that I can use when all else fails.

One last thing, this season is my first real outing as a pro ea. It's been tough and a massive learning curve. I've gone from 15 escapes a year to about 20 a month. I finally understand what Ken and the other "old boys" have been talking about all these years... And it's not something you can understand by reading a book or watching a DVD. I now have a completely different perspective on things.

I know I still have a long way to go. But every cut and bruise from this season is a lesson I've learnt the hard way. And boy have I had a lot of painful lessons.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure it's scrumpy 'o clock,

Ros

Okay, this 'two-bit amateur' won't bother anyone anymore.

I thought I was the two-bit amateur?

Actually, Cliff, there are a lot of us, which is a good thing.
Imagine having to bear the burden of being THE two-bit amateur--having to live up (or down) to that distinction--having to deal with all the young punks seeking to topple you from the pinnacle of mediocrity...

Hey it’s my turn to be on the pinnacle of mediocrity for a bit. Either move over or just jump down.

Let me know when you get tired Dave, I'll take over for you for a bit, and then Steve can have a turn.