I have noticed certain videos have a very high turnover rate. Slowburn and Black Envelope to name a couple. I hope that the people who are trading / selling them, are doing so because they determined the effect wasn't for them. However it seems wrong to me to sell these off just because they learned the secret and don't need them anymore.

I have noticed this as well. It happens with some great items. I believe that some buy the items to learn the secret and then sell it, but continue to use the effect. This, in my opinion, is wrong.

Now, I'm sure that there are some who buy items then decide that it is not for them so they sell it. This is ok as long as they no longer use the effect.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

The problem is how do you know why the person is selling? We can never know! Anyway, why would it be ok to sell if it's "not for you" and not ok to sell if you "don't need it anymore" and want to buy other things with the money? I wouldn't worry so much about it because there is really nothing we can do. Years ago a kid had seen me do something and decided he would go to a magic store with his allowance and buy it just so he can find out how it was done. The kid did just that and rubbed it in my face later. I almost beat the living %^$& out of him, but why waste my knuckles? That wouldnt get me anywhere and wouldn't make a difference because people will do what people will do. It stinks, but I'm not going to worry about it, I got too much to think about already. I worry about me and how I respect the art and not help corrupt it, and I try to get younger magicians and mentalists to follow in these footsteps.

:comply:

Okay, you get a book and read it, or a video and watch it; you learn a bunch of routines.
Or you buy a trick and learn it.
Then you sell the trick, book, or video.
You obviously can't forget what you have learned!
So what does that make you?
Well, in some circles, that would make you a magic dealer.
And where, exactly, is the line drawn between magician and dealer?
If you buy two items? Ten? A thousand? Or just one?
If you pay wholesale? Or less than retail? Or full retail but resell it for more?
If you have a shop?
Or a web site?
Or some tricks in your basement?
So just what EXACTLY is the difference between selling something as a magician and selling something as a part-time dealer?

Peter,

I look at it this way. When I buy a book or manuscript and a routine from it makes it into my show I keep the book or manuscript. If the book or manuscript is sold the routine gets taken out.

This goes for props too. Even if I make a custom version of a prop that fits the look of my show better, I would never sell the original. Because that way the creator gets compensated for his hard work.

It's only fair.

Working in a magic shop, I get to learn many effects for free. My payback is the number of items I sell for the owner and creator. We all profit, but in different ways. Mine is knowledge. Theirs is financially. Once you release something out to the public, it's out. What people do with it is beyond anyones control. I respect the magical art by treating the effects, secrets, and fellow magicians with respect and without abusing what I've gained. Like Alexandre mentioned, I can only do my part in my own way. I do teach the magical young'uns who come in magical etiquette and insist they follow it when there and away. It's also a money thing. Someone who's magically hungry, but doesn't have enough money for certain purchases with do what they can to gain the knowledge. Not that it's right, it's just the way it is. They don't get it from me, but many times they end up getting it.
Magically, Jack

The fact of the matter is that ethics and legality are not the same. If you willingly buy an item with the intent to run off copies and resell them, that is unquestionably against the law. Most would also agree it is unethical.

What if you ran off copies for your friends and did not sell them. Technically that is not illegal since they are not copied for resale and fall under the banner of making copies for "educational" purposes, but it is still unethical.

What if you decided to lend your book or trick to a friend to use, read, or do, in a show. Not illegal - what is that? unethical? an act of kindness? the camaraderie among fellow magicians?

I think it is a question that can never be answered satisfactorily and for all to agree - ethics are personal decisions based upon what one feels is right or wrong. Some are more ethical than others.

I do, however, think it is a pie-in-the-sky notion to those who invent tricks or write books that they can somehow control what happens after the sale. As a result, I feel they should sell things with the clear understanding that once purchased their right to contro has ended and there is now a new owner. Good or bad, right or wrong, that owner is now free to do what he or she wishes even if it is unethical.

Even sadder is the fact that magic represents so little in the way of financial gain for the inventor and/or writer - the legalities will also tend to fall along the wayside.

Thoughts?

If I buy a self-help book on Assertiveness and read it and learn the lessons and become more assertive as a result, am I to keep the book forever?

And if I sell it on am I expected to forget all I learned, and become less assertive just because I no longer have the book?

Thought this would be a good place to post this:
I am selling several books and videos. The books have several pages torn out and others blackened out. The vids have some large gaps that I have dupped in bird songs. All of the editing, of course, is due to the effects I remember and use....not to say what is left isn't valuable to you. Make me an offer.

Frank writes: ". . . they (the creators) should sell things with the clear understanding that once purchased their right to control has ended and there is now a new owner. Good or bad, right or wrong, that owner is now free to do what he or she wishes even if it is unethical."

Absolutely.

As one who has been the "victim", I see no difference between buying and selling a magic tape and buying and selling any other sort of tape or DVD: You get value from both while you own them; but, after you sell them, are you somehow supposed to forget what you saw?

Once a person buys a "thing" -- any thing -- it belongs to that person and the original owner/creator has got to learn to let go.

If the buyer wants to keep the thing, destroy it, have it bronzed, give it away, or sell it, it is the seller's business now!

Important note: If anyone does NOT want their material resold, then DON'T sell it in the first place!

It's that simple.

Hmmmmm,
Suppose; instead of the masked magician exposing the secrets to all the various effects on his television specials, what if he had simply handed out a book (or published one) and said, "Here you go. This book has all the secrets. After you're done, pass it along to anyone else who's interested." Is there a difference? After all, they're both revealing, and magicians are winning lawsuits against him for his television series. It's like the music/mp3 issue. Where's the line?
Just thought I'd respark this thread.
Magically, Jack

Bottom line:

"Magicians" do not respect magic in the way musicians respect music or theater professionals respect theater. Perhaps there in lies the reason for the lack of respect from the "general public"... which granted is a whole 'nuther topic.

Tom

Tom Cutts writes: ""Magicians" do not respect magic in the way musicians respect music or theater professionals respect theater."

That's true.

And whose fault is that?

Well, I would suggest that a great deal of it lies with the dealers who advertise that a trick can be done five minutes after opening the box, or no skill is required, or no practice is needed.

An equal amount belongs on the shoulders of the buyers who believe that nonsense.

We simply pretend to make it too easy, for economic gain!

Could you imagine someone -- anyone -- advertising: "Play the piano with no practice" or "Star in Hamlet -- no skill required!"

Until the same, or more, effort is given to presentation that is given to the creation, manufacture and sale of "tricks" (and we all know too many, anyway!), then magic will continue to be a third-rate form of entertainment. In other words, "crap"!

And, while it may not be the intention, exposure -- be it the Masked Magician or re-selling videotapes -- will help, rather than hurt, the moves in that direction!

Let's give a little more thought to presentation and have a little less paranoia about "secrets" which are only "secrets" because nobody else cares about them!

I'm all in favor of paranoia about secrets, and if nobody cared about them the exposure specials wouldn't get such high ratings. All that aside, however, why should performance and a belief in the importance of secrets be mutually exclusive? These two things existed happily together in magic for centuries.

--Chris

Now *here's* one big ball of wax. I wanted to begin at the beginning with a magic effect, and let's for the sake of argument say that this effect belongs to a working magician whose name would likely sell an effect. Pick one, makes little difference. This magician has worked out an effect that is an ab-so-frickin-lutely fooler, and the 'insiders' are all a-twitter. Said magician will be getting some heavy mileage out of this effect for quite some time before those lower on the magical food chain ever see the effect. There comes a time when a magical formula comes into play. How long can I use this effect with any degree of exclusivity, and how long can the effect be effective before the magic buying public cease to be interested? Okay, now you have the Amazing Bondolini who has fooled the insiders with his new Rotating Smack Daddy, and word begins to trickle outward. Soon we are reading of this killer on the Magic Café and the Genii Forum. (Don't be angry if I didn't name your favorite forum, I haven't the room to name them all.) Needless to say, there are magicians chomping at the bit to get hold of the brand spankin' new RSD, the magician has gotten his mileage out of it, and it is time to get what cash can be got. The point in all of this is that yes, there are legal and ethical considerations, neither of which can be enforced with any degree of consistency. Perhaps all we can expect from an effect is to help us own exclusive rights to a fooler for a time, to take our name from the outside track to the inside, and maybe even to put a few bucks in our pockets. I have not mentioned the dealers and manufacturers, and it isn't because I don't think they matter, but because their livelihood depends on the very things that we cannot control - personal integrity. Perhaps we should know where we stand ethics-wise, support those that deserve it, and let's not knowingly or maliciously give away what isn't ours to give. Let ethics, honesty, and common sense guide.

lets face it. the value of magic book or video IS different from the value of a movie or novel or a self-help book. Its the secrets! Magic is supposed to be about keeping them. A magic video with no secrets would be of little value, whereas a movie has entertainment value which can only be enjoyed for as long as you own the video. However if you sell a magic video after extracting its secrets, it is in my mind the same thing as asking for a refund. Well if you wanted a refund you really have no business to continue to make use of the secrets. Sure you can't just forget them, (although the ammount of tricks I've forgotten over the years might prove to the contrary), but at the very least, have the decency not to perform the trick anymore. Its like the guy who orders an fancy meal, licks his plate clean and then complains about the food just so that he can demand his money back.

Geoff writes: "A magic video with no secrets would be of little value. . . "
and ". . .if you sell a magic video after extracting its secrets, it is in my mind the same thing as asking for a refund."

Actually, there are many magic videos out there with NO secrets on them and I think that many, many people think they are of great value: For example, videos on presentation (to continue to flog that horse!), performance-only videos (of people like Slydini, Vernon, etc.), or "how-to" videos (on how to make such-and-such, or how to raise doves, rabbits, etc.).

And part two:
Suppose I buy a video for $40 and sell it for $20.
That's not the same as a refund!
You mean I can't do that?
To continue your analogy, what if I order a "fancy meal" and DON'T lick my plate clean but only eat a small bit because I have a complaint; am I justified in demanding my money back?
If so, then how is that different from buying a magic video and, finding out that it teaches something that I can never use, reselling the video?

Sorry, but -- as Fitzkee says -- there are no magic secrets that a person of average intelligence couldn't figure out, given the time and the will to do so.

Videos, books, etc. simply shorten that time.

They, themselves, are not the "grand repository" of secrets.

Our philosophy at the shop is, we're selling the secrets. The props or materials are free extras. That's why people are willing to pay $30+ dollars for a few pieces of paper, or molded plastic (for example). It's the secret they're purchasing, and what they really want. Sure, effects that involve a lovely piece of apparatus is a nice thing indeed, but never do I hear, "Hey, that's a cute plastic box in the showcase. How much? $50? I'll take it!" It's always after they see the effect, unless they're already familiar with it, do they even consider spending that kind of money for it. That's also why most (if not all) magic shops don't offer refunds. We'd have people buying and returning books or manuscripts constantly. I think if I ever get into manufacturing my own effects, I'm only going to sell those that involve difficult to reproduce (for the average person) props, so that way if the purchaser decides to sell it, he has no choice but to sacrifice his/her ability to continue to perform it. They may know the secret involved, but oh well. We all know many things that we'll never utilize.
Magically, Jack

Don't kid yourself about selling secrets and giving away the props. Many magicians are upset by poor quality props and many of us, myself included, will often remanufacture the props. If the integrety in magic were higher, quality of props would never be an issue, they would always be of high quality - regardless of the value of the secret. Instead when we receive a poorly made gimmick or prop, we just stay silent about it. It is just another one of the "secrets" we keep.

I marvel at how many people continue to talk about the importance of keeping secrets sacred, in the same sentence where they talk about books and videos. Hello - isn't that giving away secrets?

To some degree none of us keep secrets, we devise them, publish them, vend them, talk about them on fourms such as this, show them off at SAM and IBM meetings, have conventions about them, lecture about them. Really what we are talking about is that we don't get on the rooftop and shout about them.

The cold hard fact remains, once we buy them - we own them.

"Selling secrets" is generally a rationale for refusing refunds to dissatisfied customers (whether the effect itself is unworkable or the props supplied are shoddily constructed).

I have never heard of a magic vendor discounting an effect to a buyer who knew the secret. Have you? If the buyer already has the secret, what is he buying if not the apparatus?

As a case in point, I purchased a sliding die box. I knew full well what the workings of the prop were. The box that was sold to me was mechanically poor, and unreliable. I wanted one that operated well. When I complained, I was given that line about "buying the secret." I have never dealt with that vendor again.

0pus