I've been in this business too long to be kidding myself. Over 20 years in magic shops, and far longer perfoming. I have thousands of props and books, which I keep. Most props are well made, though there are exceptions. The main reason for the prop is to get the point across, which is generally the illusion/effect. Spectators don't care how the prop looks. A plastic Tenyo item can be just as amazing as as one made out of oak, and we sell far more of the plastic props than any other. And not because of the price. It's because of what it does. Some people and magicians put the secrets to effects as secondary entities, when actually they're the main entity. If it wasn't for them, it would only be a piece of plastic or wood, which wouldn't cost any diferently than any other similar product. What matters is what it does, which is their main drive for purchasing. Like I said, they want the secret, the effect that's done, not the prop alone. We sold a pice of paper, at an auction, for over $100 dollars! It wasn't historical or even antique. It was because of what was written on it, which was the secret to an illusion.
Those who make their own props or remake a better one, good for them. But if there wasn't a magical effect involved, who would be doing it then?
Opus, if you knew the secret, then why did you go to buy the prop. To make the secret work? Look at it the other way around. If you had the prop, what could you do with it without having the secret? Look at card books, which are the mass majority genre. The prop is a deck of cards. That's all. So why do so many buy the massive books on the subject? It's because of the secrets of card tricks by greats like Dai Vernon, Larry Jennings, J.K. Hartman, etc. But wait, it's just a deck of cards. They're buying the secrets, not the prop.
Magically, Jack

Jack, you are a vendor.

I am a consumer.

I don't think we will agree.

You say "The main reason for the prop is to get the point across."

I expect an expensive prop to work in performance. If I wanted plans, I would have bought plans.

0pus

O.K.,
I guess you're right about us not agreeing on this subject.
You wrote:I expect an expensive prop to work in performance.
It wouldn't be as expensive of a prop if there wasn't an expensive secret that the creator felt was worth the price.
When you read magic trick descriptions at magic shops (Hank Lee's, Tannens, etc..), notice that they usually describe the effects first, then tell all that you get for the price. If it's a well made prop, it will be mentioned in the beginning. But then it's off with the effect. The effect is the foremost interest, the magic, which contains the secret. Everything else is icing on the cake. I admire well made props. It shows pride the creator has in his/her effect. We can't stand cruddy workmanship or a gimmick that doesn't enable the magician to perform the secret well. We love when someone like frankft comes in with an improved prop that he'd built or improved. It shows me/us his pride in the illusion and the promotion of this artform. Thanks for your perspective.
Magically, Jack

Have you?

Ever bought a book (non- magic) read it and then sold it or gave it to a friend to read. You got the pleasure from the book and gave or sold it to someone else and they get the pleasure from it as well but the author doesn't make a dime for that second reading.

what a about a vhs video or a cd or dvd.

What about making a mix-tape for your girlfriend.

What about using tivo and cutting out the commercials.

In all these ways someone is losing money for someone elses gain.

If a magic trick is only as good as its secret then its not worth buying anyway.

As Peter said if you buy it, you do what you want with it (aside from making copies and selling them etc.. - which is actually against the law) but don't judge others for what they do with it to make yourself feel better, because were probably all guilty of one of the above infractions.

Matt

Jack writes: "Our philosophy at the shop is, we're selling the secrets. The props or materials are free extras."

Do you mean that, if I came into your shop and showed you that I knew the secret EXACTLY to something, you would GIVE me the props for free?

I don't think so!

OF COURSE you're selling material; it's the secrets (whatever they are) that are at issue here.

Jack adds: "Opus, if you knew the secret, then why did you go to buy the prop?"

More accurately, one might ask that -- if he knew the secret -- why are you selling him the prop? By your own argument, shouldn't you be GIVING it away?

Mr. Marucci, Opus and myself are all in agreement about this. I do think you are kidding yourself about secrets and props.

You mention Tenyo as an example because it is made of plastic. Tenyo is well known for attention to detail and building a quality prop. You buy Tenyo and you buy quality. The fact it is made from plastic is irrelevant to the discussion.

If you were talking to a bunch of lay people I could buy your argument about secrets being the main thing and the props are free or incidental, however anyone whop has ever purchased tricks via mail order can attest by an entire drawerful of poor quality props.

The good news is that it adds to the fun of those "white elephant" sales at the magic clubs.

I will agree to disagree and move on.

I love magical secrets! I think they are fun, exciting and intellectually stimulating. I will continue to collect and hoard them, whether I ever actually use them or not in performance. I am secrets-hungry; magical secrets make me drool.

In addition to enjoying and savouring magical secrets, amassing a broad magical knowledge is extremely useful to me when I want to device a new effect or routine. Knowing secrets helps me assess the options available when I need to solve a particular problem. Knowing many magical secrets helps me get good at magical thinking and magical problem solving, and it helps me to come up with new secrets.

Now some will insist that I pay through my teeth for every drop of this knowledge; whether worthwhile or simply ridiculous. Some will insist that I never sift through the garbage and pick and choose. Some will have me keep every magical thing or trinket that I touch (like some strange curse: my rooms fill up with magical props and books. There is nowhere to sit or sleep. Everything must be kept until death. And then? Burnt?).

No I refuse to heed your indignant cries! I will not obey! I will dole out my money at my own whim and recuperate my losses as I fancy. I will lend books, I will borrow books, I will buy books (keeping some, selling some on), I will share my DVDs, I will tease out the secrets from the net, I will watch your performances on TV in slow motion, again and again, weeding out every secret. I will read between the lines of every posting at The Café.

I will gain knowledge, whether I can afford to or not.


[A recent survey has shown that humour and satire on the web, in particular on chat forums, is often misinterpreted.]

For me, the worst possible thing a magician could do is steal some ones trick or idea and say it was their creation, Then sell the effect as if it was their trick on a video or in a book.
I my self give materal away to a young person if I see he /she is interested in the art of magic . But that just me..

vinny

tenyo is the finest maker of plastic junk magic toys. no more

If you are publicly performing tenyo stuff then read no further.

Yes it is fun to know the secrets, but the whole "selling of secrets" is magic shop lingo to get around having to tell people how things work.

Yes the secrets are the most important part but they are not the only thing.

Ive never agreed with Peter this much (whats happening to me)

Matt

I think we are getting off topic a little. The original post, by Geoff, was asking about the ethics of buying a video or book, learning the secret and selling the book or video to a third party while still performing the routine you learned from it.

I believe that if you are using someone's creation, be it book, video, prop, etc... in your act, you should own the source material.

For example, let's say I bought "Stunners Plus" by Larry Becker. After reading the book I know the secret to his Russian Roulette routine and let's say I add it to my act. Since I now know the secret I could just sell the book, but I don't believe that is ethical.

I believe that if I sell the book to someone else that routine, or any others that have come from that book, should come out of my show.

Now of course we have those who will say, "So should I have to own a book or video that teaches the double lift to use that move?" My answer would be no. Now, if you perform a routine from a book, video, or whatever, then you should have the source material.

Magic is no different than anything else when it comes to books, videos and even props... When you go to college you can buy used books at the begining of the semester and sell them back at the end of the semester, but does that mean that you have to forget what you have learned or give it back -- I don't think that it works that way, but according to some of you I could be wrong!

Magic is a performing art but it is also a subject to be studied, and when you study you go through a lot of material -- and most prople will not keep all of it, most people can't afford to!

Think about it for a minute -- magic is very unique in the fact that we get so many people from all around the world, from all walks of life, some rich, some poor and many of us in-between. I know kids, good magicians working in magic shops, going to school, working part time jobs just to be able to buy that new effect or even better that book that they have been drooling over! I see some of them getting a book and studying it, learning the material and then selling it so that they can get the money to buy another one.

I just deleted most of what I wrote because I didn't want this to be 2 pages long. But let me say that there are a lot of people out there that do this for the love of the magic and they don't have much money! These are the ones that perform with a few coins and a deck of cards and maybe a ring and string -- these are the ones that have to save up to buy a new close-up pad because the one that they have is worn out! These are the ones that have maybe five or six books on the shelf of the one bedroom apartment that they share with someone that they can't stand because they can't afford one on their own! These are the ones that buy a book, study it and then sell it so that they can buy another one. And these are the ones that are and will be creating the stuff that you are using in the next few years!

Maybe it's not ethical, but this is not a pipe dream -- it is life! Now I will be the first to admit that I see a lot of people, mostly kids that buy everything that they can get their hands on, watch it or check it out and then sell it -- I see it here all the time. Those people are doing themselves a injustice -- not you! Those people are not learning anything except secrets, and those will be forgotten soon.

I am going to end this here, but believe me I could go on and on because we have barely touched upon ethics and haven't even mentioned several areas -- but I guess we will save those for later!

I will leave you with this, we tend to worry too much about those things that we can not change!

I recently had an extended conversation with several other magicians concerning the topic of reselling/trading videos,tricks, etc., once one has purchased them fairly.
I have to say that I believe those magicians who condemn reselling are simply interested in dollar signs instead of the logic, or lack of it, behind what they are saying.
The argument seems to be this: If I put out a video, others have the right to buy it and put money in my pocket but they are acting immorally if they resell the video because the people who by it will not buy the video from me.

First of all, these magicians must realize that magic is a business and like any other business's products, once they are put up for sale and purchased in good faith, the purchaser has the right to do anything he/she wants with the item as long as they abide by copyright laws, etc.

Most of these magicians whom I have spoken with to seem to think that the immorality of borrowing, re-selling, trading, etc., only applies to magic, not to other aspects of their lives. For example, how many of these magicians have ever purchased a used vehicle from an individual?? Would this not also, by their flawed logic, be immoral?? The purchaser is,in fact, taking money away from the people who work in the auto industry by not buying from a dealer. Have they ever borrowed a pencil or pen from someone?? By their logic, they are acting immorally by taking money out the hands of people who work for the companies that make these products.
I understand the desire to make money from your products but once they are purchased in good faith, it is definitely not immoral to re-sell them.

As far as the intellectual property theory goes, one must keep in mind that everything in the history of the world that has ever been sold was, at one time, someone's intellectual property. If you put it up for sale, it is no longer solely yours and morality is not an issue unless copyrights are violated.

I think that these magicians have no real understanding of the philosophy behind immoralty. I suggest that they do some reading on the subject and, in particular,
the philosophic concept of "Universality" in determining whether an action is immoral.

As a side bar, I have to add that most magicians to whom I've spoken on the subject, say that the main reason for re-selling items is because they were misled (pardon the pun) by the advertising for the product. I have also been the victim of misleading product effect descriptions. Recently, I have noticed that the effects of the products on the market are rarely correct. This is also true of magic books. I recently read an article in Magic magazine by Luis Falanga in which he was blatantly calling re-sellers dishonest and I believe he even used the word "stealing".
I found this interesting, since Mr. Falanga sells many of the books and videos that have misleading effect descriptions. Hmmm, where does the dishonesty really lie??
These people feel that because magic is based on deception, that it's okay to be deceptive in order to get people to buy the products.

THERE IS NOTHING IMMORAL ABOUT RE-SELLING SOMETHING THAT ONE PURCHASES IN GOOD FAITH BUT IT IS DISHONEST TO GIVE INCORRECT EFFECT DESCRIPTIONS IN ORDER TO SELL A PRODUCT.

I'm in the process of putting my thoughts on this subject into an article form for the magic periodicals and would like to here from pwople with difering points of view.

The "intellectual property theory" as you call it is not a theory, but a series of laws -- the patent law, the copyright law and the trademark law. Each of these has different criteria, different rules and different applications.

Certainly you have the right to sell anything you have purchased. That does not diminish the intellectual property of the owner. Intellectual property is a tangible expression of an idea. That's all it is. If you buy a book that I own the copyright to from me, you own that book. But I haven't relinquished my right to sell other copies of it to other people. I can sell as many copies of it as I wish.

On the other hand, you don't have the right to photocopy it and sell the photocopies to other people. Nor do you have the right to make a photocopy of it and sell the original to other people without destroying the photocopy. Basically, the book can't have babies on it's trip from one person's library to another's.

Another thing you don't have is the right to publish a book that I hold the copyright to as an e-book or as a CD-ROM. That's a violation of my intellectual property.

Regarding the descriptions of effects and/or material on DVD's -- you have to learn how to read descriptions. Some are more accurate than others. Because of the nature of magic tricks and the magicians who build them, a dealer cannot say: "This is a very clever trick in which a mentalist does a B***** S**** and sneaks the original into a sealed envelope." That would violate all of the secrecy agreements we, as magicians have made.

I do understand your point. I can sell you a floating light bulb effect. You can do this one in full daylight, close-up and surrounded. No threads, no wires, no other "invisible" supports. You can unscrew an incandescent lamp and it will float right in front of you. No need to switch out the bulb. You can even pass a hoop over it while it's floating.

Sounds good, doesn't it? I swear every word is absolutely true.

Of course, I didn't mention that it requires a very large tub of water in which to float the light bulb.

And that's why you have to know your dealer. A good dealer won't even carry rubbish like this.

Now, I'm not sure what Louis Falanga said in his article about resellers. It really makes no difference. It's legal to resell your books, tapes and DVD's when you no longer want them. It's not legal to make copies of them and then sell the originals or vice-versa.

But you can't excuse illegal or immoral conduct as punishment for other illegal or immoral conduct. You don't have the right to "spank" Louis Falanga if you feel that he has violated some law about product description -- the government reserves that right.

BTW, the chances that Louis actually wrote a product description is kind of far-fetched. For most tricks, the product descriptions are written by the people who originated them. Louis is really in the book business and the video business. He doesn't make tricks.

'Way back when (on the first page here), Jack writes: "Our philosophy at the shop is, we're selling the secrets. The props or materials are free extras."

What utter hogwash!

Does that mean that, if I buy a trick -- any trick -- on a Monday and learn the secret, then I can go back to the shop on Tuesday and get another one for free?

No? Why not? After all, I already know the secret and have paid for it -- and you say YOURSELF that "The props or materials are free extras."

Get real!!!!!

After being in this business for "mucho years" I never buy a trick for it's secret. Yes, I've bought many for the basic routine which I want to modify but never for it's secret.

What bugs me, is when it is defective and the dealer says you bought it and no returns or replacements, that's unethical. That's why I mostly deal with Denny & Lee, if it is defective he replaces it, but most of the time he refuses to sell me a piece of crap and states why he like another version of the same effect. To date, Denny Hanney has never steered me wrong. He knows me, my style, and what I like. Now that's a dealer.

With the advent of DVD, VHS tapes are going to be next to the vinyel records in antique stores and VHS recorders will be in the Smithonian. So one must buy the new version (DVD) to qualify (to some) as being ethical.

Even in the medical field as well as religion, ethics is a personal choice in which one does what one believes to be right and that person must live with that decision.

There are no secrets in magic, just read Fitzkee's "The Trick Brain" and all the secrets are revealled.

Let me bring this down to a personal level. I would LOVE it if everyone bought my books, DVD and other products, kept them, enjoyed them and recommended to everyone else that they buy their own directly from me. HOWEVER...

I am fully aware that my stuff is not for everyone. So if, for example, you bought one of my books, read through, learned a few of the routines and then decided to sell it at your club's annual auction, I have nothing against you. I'm not going to comdemn you or the person you sold it to. I hope you both enjoy and can use my stuff. HOWEVER...

If you photocopy my book or dub my DVD and then sell or give away either the master or the copy while keeping the other--I've got a BIG problem with you and with anyone who buys or accepts a bootleg copy. This also applies to downloads. If you buy a downloaded (PDF) routine from me, you are not authorized to make copies to sell or give away. I suppose it'd be OK with me if you could load it onto a CD and sell/give that or email it to someone, but ONLY after deleting all other copies of it from your computer and discs. If you're sending that PDF out to people--for free or for money--without then deleting your copy, or if you're sending muliple copies, you're stealing from me.

So, to summarize, I have no moral/ethical problem with the authorized versions of my stuff being sold/given away in the second hand market, unless the seller/giver is keeping an unauthorized copy himself. I have a BIG problem with that as well as with selling/giving unauthorized copies.

I competely agree with Bill Palmers post in response to my own. There is nothing wrong with reselling a video or trick as long as copyright laws, etc., are adhered to.(Which opens up a whole other argument about whether breaking a law is immoral but that is for another forum).

As far as the trick effect descriptions argument goes, I also agree with Bill in most cases. I know, as a magician, that the descriptions have to be brief and to the point without details that might give away the method but in compiling information for my article I have noticed that some of these descriptions are WAY, WAY off. Experiened magicians know better but what about newcomers to our art? Don't we owe it to them to let them know that they cannot always believe a large part of these descriptions or do we just let them get ripped off as we did?

I recently purchased several inexpensive tricks for the sole purpose of checking out how the descriptions compared with the actual trick. I was disappointed by most of them.

Without giving anything away...one trick, which was put out by two extremely prominate magicians, claimed that after revealing the chosen card in a magical way (actually pretty neat) the "remaining cards can be shown freely to the audience". The truth is that only the first 20 cards can be freely shown the rest of the cards cannot. To me, this description contains a blatant lie and is immoral.
If the producers had simply left out the part about the final examination, I would not have had a problem with the trick. I have no problem with ending dirty as most experienced magicians would not. But my focus here is the deceptive descriptions. Believe me, I'm giving a lot of room here. It has to be really bad before I will consider it immoral!
The other claim that I have seen frequently is the "cards can be immediately handed out for examination" claim. After reading the instructions, it comes out that the cards must be switched out before handing them out. Again, experienced magicians know from past experience that this is the case but do we just excuse the dishonesty in this statement because we got burned and know the difference?? I don't think so. Remember, magic is one of the fields where purchases cannot always be returned because you felt that you had been deceived.

As far as Bill's comment about Luis Falanga, I must reitterate that I didn't say he was breaking any laws by marketing/carrying items with blatantly false descriptions, I merely said that doing so is, in my opinion, condoning a dishonest practice that is prevalent in our art. I feel that condoning dishonesty is tacit approval of the act and also immoral. Nor did I say that Mr. Falanga wrote the descriptions himself. I feel that Mr. Falanga is acting immorally by carrying/marketing items with blatantly dishonest descriptions. The tricks would sell just as well to experienced magicians if the descriptions were correct.

Bill, I am glad that you responded to my post! I have read several articles about you in the periodicals and I respect your opinion. I feel that I really need to be challenged on this opinion by the experts in order for my outlook and article to evolve.
If you would like to contact me off line so that we can go into greater detail on the subject ( we are pretty cramped here since we cannot go into particulars like actual examples) please do so at: http://www.sophisticatedmagic.com

[quote]On 2005-04-04 00:13, Bill Palmer wrote:


Right on Bill! That's a great metaphor for copyright infringement!

This topic is interesting to me because I just bought Hundy 500 by Greg Wilson on EBAY. I think I may learn the trick and then re-sell it on ebay. Not sure yet.

I have no idea if the effect will stay in my act, only time will tell. But I know that I won't need the DVD anymore.

May I add:

I do like the effect, Greg is awsome, and the DVD is well produced.

The creator of the effect is not Greg Wilson - its Pat Page, as stated in the DVD. So, please, no complaints then about "the originator of the effect" not getting his money.

This is a one trick DVD. If Greg had put this effect on a DVD with several other good effects I would absolutely keep the DVD in case I ever wanted to learn any of the other effects. (I've never re-sold a book ). I will probably never resell my "black envelope" DVD for this reason- it has several routines on it.

My point is that the creators of $30 DVDs with one trick on them should not be surprised at a fair amount of circulation. This would also apply to simple one trick manuscripts. Has anyone seen a card college set on Ebay? How about a Tarbell course? Rarely. They have too much VALUE to part with.

Happy bidding.