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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts 
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Actually, while I take your point (and it's not a bad one), I see Tarbell volumes up on eBay all the time, usually from people who think they have "advanced" beyond them. I fool magicians all the time with stuff right out of Tarbell, Greater Magic, RRTCM, Bobo, Stars of Magic, Amateur Magician's Handbook, etc.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
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debaser Special user Boulder 557 Posts
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Bsears - it is not your choice to decide what something should be worth. If you think it is overpriced don't buy it. I have paid welll more than 30 dollars for one trick that was not as good as hundy.
I agree that magic videos are overpriced and usually junk and I still don't understand why they make two videos or four videos that could easily fit on one dvd disc. This is just pure marketing etc... Its a waste of recources as well. up the price and one dvd and call it a night. However, if you want to get the hundy routine for free (or atleast a discount) don't put your behaviour on the seller. It is YOUR decision to sell something your using and it is YOUR karma etc... Im not judging you for the act, but you must take responsibility for it instead of putting it on the seller. Matt |
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Turk Inner circle Portland, OR 3546 Posts
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Many (if not most) local magic clubs have lending libraries. Many, if not most magicians (including the pros and "heavy hitters") share other routines or "new moves" that they have just learned (and freely share books and videos) amongst "their peers". And yes, I know that some "purists" (upon whom butter would not melt in their mouths) will allege that they are "above" this "reprehensible" practice. However, it is accepted practice in the magic community to freely pass a book or a video back and forth or to have group parties where a video is communially watched or to share a secret one-on-one. And don't forget the public libraries where books and videos are freely and repeatedly lent out.
That said, from a conceptional standpoint, is there really any appreciable difference between those practices and the practice of reading a book or watching a video, learning the material and then selling the same. In all of the above cases, only one copy of the book or video is distributed. It seems that the "ethics" comes down to two basic positions: The position of the originators/magic dealers and the position of the end users. It seems like there is now just the constant tension and competing interests between those in the business of making money by selling the secrets (the originators and the dealers) and those interested in saving money (the end users). Hence, I respectfully suggest that there are no immutable ethical principles in this area. I freely acknowledge that there are some end users who feel that you should not perform any effect that you do not physically own or have a book on or have a video on. Fine. If that makes them feel better within themselves, fine. But, that is NOT the prevalent position in the magic community. In sum, it appears that in magicland there are no hard and fast rules other than those rules that are based upon LAWS (such as copyright laws and licensing agreements and formally agreed to "Rights to Perform", etc.). Just IMHO. Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.
This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto. Eschew obfuscation. |
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bsears Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 1040 Posts
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Debaser - of course its my choice to decide what somethings worth - I'm the consumer. I bid what I was willing to pay, and won. that's what makes ebay so wonderful.
But, to be honest, I have paid more for less. And vice versa. Yes I agree that magic videos are generally overpriced and filled with some just OK stuff just to make it a 4 DVD set. This is a common criticism Mike Close and others have made - we don't need the filler - just put the best stuff on a disc or two. I think we need to send the producers a message. One way to do this is to pass mediocre poducts around on ebay. |
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-04-22 01:59, Turk wrote: As someone who is, I suppose, a purist, and one whom has been called a hypocrite, and a liar by people who have not met me, I have to say after a quick experiment, butter does melt in my mouth. So thank you for your thoughtful and polite concern over my internal bodily temperature. That said, I don't care if you show people your books and DVDs. I just thank it is wrong to professionally perform effects you do not own or have permission to perform. If you want to share your inventions, then that is great. If I go over to someone’s house who shows me a certain Vernon book I do not own, I will probably eagerly grab the book to find out the secret of that one trick I am interested in. I am OK with that because I won't perform the effect without having bought the book (if it is out of print, I would have to think a little.) But there is the problem. I would be like a little kid in a candy store and maybe that is not the best state of mind to receive secrets. That is what I fear sometimes goes on. Just a bunch of people passing secrets back and forth like little kids. As far as the percentage of magicians who freely share and pass around published material to their friends and fellow ring members, you and I don't know. I would like to hear from some of the Pros on what they think we should do, and what they actually do, with other magicians published routines. In other words, I don't want to know whether they share their own routines, but whether they pass around other magician's books and DVDs to groups of magicians knowing that those said magicians will use the routines without buying the source. For example, do the serious pros here pass around the Art of Astonishment to any members of their local ring, knowing that many of those members might simply copy the routines without buying the books. Paul Harris can't answer that question. 
Chris
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bsears Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 1040 Posts
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The top names in our field "share" stuff all the time. At sessions, at conventions, etc.
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts
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But that doesn't answer the question. What magicians, specifically, share whose material? We always hear about those kind hearted magicians who so nicely share stuff at conventions. But are they sharing their stuff or others' stuff? I am not talking about sleights, which are considered by most to be more open to sharing. I am talking about sharing full routines that others have published. I don't even mean someone showing a routine, and talking a little about it. I mean how many pros take published works that are not their own, such as working pro John Doe taking his collection of ETMCM to a convention, and passing them out, willie nillie, for people to look at.
I know there are gray areas, but not everything done is in the gray. I have even had pros here chide us purists for holding back the progress of magic because of our stance on sharing. Yet, in most cases, the pros were still talking about sharing their own routines, not others. I do several routines in my busking that come from one of the more respected pro magicians on this forum. I would never think to share his manuscripts with anyone else without permission. Since, I have never received explicit permission from any of the publishers of any routines I own, why should I act any different with any of the published works I own. I don't mind selling what I no longer use, and I am tempted to sell some books that I probably will never use, but maybe have one possibility. I guess that is not the end of the world, but I try to keep what I have.
Chris
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Posted: Apr 13, 2005 10:24 am 
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