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idomagic Loyal user Denver, CO 255 Posts |
OK, here is a topic that should create a deep discussion... I can't wait to hear the comments.
Is it ethical to resell a magic DVD with tricks, routines and methods on it? I say, "No." Why: Intellectual property rights often seem to be ignored by magicians. When you purchase a DVD with tricks, routines and methods you are buying a license to use the material from the creator. If you utilize any bit of the included material (even a derivative), your effective licensing fee is the cost of the DVD. By reselling the DVD, even at a loss, you are depriving the maker from future licensing income. For instance, if a DVD is sold 3 times, and everyone uses something from it, that's income from two sales the creator will never see. Reselling a DVD is no more than a "legal" way to bootleg or copy a DVD. Click here to view attached image.
Chad Wonder (Chad Wonder Magic, Inc)
Past President SAM 37/IBM 131 (Mile High Magicians) www.idomagic.com www.iDOMAGIC.dev |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Interesting. Then unless the inventor records a DVD specifically for you ...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-07-21 23:27, idomagic wrote: Just because someone will buy a used DVD does not mean they would buy it new from the creator if the used DVD was not available. |
Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Please let me know of the DVD that offers tricks which are not themselves derivatives of previous moves and effects? So what makes it that the door should close behind DVD authors when it did not in front of them? This debate has been going on for years and Don Alan was making the same claim as idomagic in the comments part of the Greater Magic Video Library VHS devoted to him... right after he had been performing the Al Whitley's routine with very few personal twists.
I never resell my DVDs but not for the reason you mention. I like keeping the references which are less and less in books and more and more on DVDs. However protecting something which is only an adaptation or a combination of various past sources boils down to institutionalizing a former "theft" (in your standards not in mine) just because it was placed on a marketed physical support. The initial point of view of this thread cannot be supported by the ones who have some knowledge of magic history. I'm afraid that I have to disagree with the initial tone of this thread and in no way to protect practices that I would be following, but because attempts at enforcing this ethical approach (supposing it could be done) would result in a much smaller DVD productions and also into more pirating. Good intent, short sighted thinking IMHO
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
A DVD is more than just a silver platter with a collection of secrets, but an adverstisement of the author's presentation style, clarity of explanations and understanding of audience engagement. When I watch a DVD that inspires me to better magic I am prone to purchase more DVD's (or books) from that performer. If the DVD is poor (for me), I am less inclined to purchase more of the performer, new or used. If my local Magic Circle had a library of DVD's I would view them to help me decide what new DVD's to purchase, thus increasing the sales for the performer because of the "used" distribution.
The problem here, methinks, is not whether the acquired DVD is new or "previously owned," but the idea of searching for that "special effect" and discarding the rest. The ready availability of magic DVDs is a testament to buying books that can be explored many times. If a DVD is "viewed once" and then sold perhaps it should not be sold in the first place! Yes, some copy the DVD and then sell it -- which is another ethical/legal question all together. I agree with Lawrence O's views above -- just think there are other factors that might apply. a question, "If you purchase a used DVD and never watch it, is there any ethical problem?"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts |
From an ethical perspective, I agree with what Chad is saying IF the DVD specifically teaches a routine, series of moves or adaptation of a previous effect unique to the author or properly credited AND if it includes a specific written performance license from the author.
Ethics aside, enforcing a generic performance license is next to impossible. I purchased a scripted show from a top school show entertainer once. He had me sign a specific performance agreement and issued a restricted performance license in my name. Unless one is willing to go that extreme, a DVD performance license really isn't worth the card stock it's printed on. Now, what if I buy the DVD and decide that the material does not fit my performance style? If I don't use the effect, I haven't ethically "activated" the license. The same holds if I use the routine, then remove it permanently from my repertoire. I'm effectively reselling the DVD with license intact: One DVD - One license - One performer. I don't see that as unethical.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts |
Ever hear of a used bookstore?
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Not to mention, I have purchased some real "dogs" and, with the "no return" policy, have no other way to recoup the bad investment other than to send in on...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-07-22 04:48, Lawrence O wrote: I am going to assume that the trick in question is the chop cup. My dad saw Al perform this trick as an Encore to his stand up act in a small night club. According to his notes - the trick did not have loads. (according to his notes on his act). Don Alan is credited by some magicians for taking this (at the time) - stand up trick and then moving it to the close up table and added the loads - an in my opinion the loads make the chop cup routine. In my opinion taking the trick to the close up table and adding the loads - that is a very serious personal twist. Roy Benson did the Benson bowl as an encore to his act. My Dad also saw him perform in a small night club back when he was appearing in New York in the 50's. Roy did the bowl routine without loads - and an assistant held a tray (one of the night club line dancers). Don Alan is credited by some magicians for taking this stand up trick (at the time) to the close up table and adding the loads. To some - Don Alan was one of the most copied magicians of the 20th century and in many conversations I have had with Don Alan. He did not like magicians doing what he considered his stuff - the big nut - ball barring load in the bowl routine. Two ideas that date back to Frank Tarvis a Chicago bar magician. Many of the working older magicians had the same opinion and tried to protect what they considered their act and their routines. Besides taking the routine to the close up table Don Alan added his own personality and his own bits of business that he learned by doing these routines for many years. Just my opinion and a few thoughts that came to mind. I hope this helps.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
walid ahumada Special user sinaloa, mexico 892 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-07-21 23:27, idomagic wrote: I say yes. I have the "Visions Of Wonder" by Tommy Wonder very handy I watch them often because they are too good (i will never sell them). however there are some DVDs that I can not even finish watch them once, I see no problem to resell them. Walid.
“Magic becomes art when it has nothing to hide.” BEN OKRI quote
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
As long as you don't make a copy of the DVD for yourself and keep the copy, then there is no legal or ethical violation of any kind. It's just like buying a music CD. If you don't like the music, sell the CD to someone who will listen to it or give it to someone who likes that kind of music.
Some of the DVD's that I get for review are sent with a note that says, "When you get through reviewing this, give it to a young magician who can use it, if you don't want to use it yourself."
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
idomagic Loyal user Denver, CO 255 Posts |
Great, we've got an excellent discussion started. Keep chiming in...
"Used" books, "used" CD's, "used" DVD's, "used" video games... it's all the same. If the intellectual property has been used, then it's used. I realize now there is an exception, if you don't use anything from the DVD then reselling it is fine. I "object" to resale if you use any of the contained content, doing so is what I call unethical. And just because every move or trick may be a derivative of something else, it still doesn't make it OK to hijack the creators compiled work. Obviously, if the DVD is a complete rip off of another's work, then try to get your money back and let the original creator know the rip off exists.
Chad Wonder (Chad Wonder Magic, Inc)
Past President SAM 37/IBM 131 (Mile High Magicians) www.idomagic.com www.iDOMAGIC.dev |
Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-07-23 01:13, idomagic wrote: The "if you use any of the contained content" seems inconsistent to me for you even precise "just because every move or trick may be a derivative of something else". You realize that this means that if a magician initially steals part of someone else's effect or uses a sleight that is not his and puts it on DVD, then (according to your theory) someone using that part or that sleight (you wrote "any") would be doing something unethical... It really seems inconsistent to me. Furthermore your usage criteria doesn't seem to hold either. If I buy a car from Ford, they have a lot of intellectual rights attached to it. Then just on the account that I would have been using the car, it would have become unethical to resell it or unethical for Hertz or Avis that would have purchased it rent it out... I'm afraid that what you propose is neither logically sustainable nor enforceable
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
This topic is continued at Ethical Hypothetical (trading).
While that topic starts out discussing trading, it changes to discussing the ethics of selling DVDs too.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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