In Bobo's it is suggested to sleeve while the hand hang at your side. But I saw many do it hands just less parallel to the floor. Personally, sometimes I'm having troubles with hands hanging down. It's like having a mental block which does not let me throw the coin. I put more and more pressure but useless. So I breathe out and at the same time throw. Though this works it wastes a significant time.

Anyone else faced this problem or is it just my cracked head? I don't have any problem throwing it hands parallel to the floor (while hands coming up). But it flashes more from the side than I want it to. Any suggestions about the mental block? I know the other methods of sleeving and use them, but I just don't want to fail to do this sleight.

Asgar,

You say you have no problems sleeving if your hands are parallel to the floor. So, just stick to that. Don't make it hard on yourself, just watch your timing.

The sleeving action creates a movement that must be covered and one way (not the only way) to cover that movement is to move the entire right hand as it pretends to place the coin in the left hand.

Asgar,

There is the mechanical side of sleeving and then the more practical aspect of it, that is actually doing it in everyday usage. Dr. Roberts method is a wonderful way to do this as it is very natural. I've been using it since learning it many, many years ago but getting good at it and mixing it into things comes in time as you come better to understand where your hand is and when to sleeve.

When it says to sleeve the coin while the hand is down, yeah but that also means that the hand right behind that is moving forward and up as the larger move. You have to put it all together and concentrating on one part as though that's it will stopgate you in your tracks with it. It's all one fluid motion behind the the propelling of the coin. If you do it like that, you won't have to worry about the coin dropping out or missing or what have you. With time you will come to "know" that every shot is clean and pure...with time and better and understanding and practice.

If I could show you this you would understand almost instantly what needs to be done but it would still take practice to make it happen, and then even more practice and understanding to make it happen anytime you want in any situation. I actually practice this all the time as a matter of habit and I do it while moving around throughout NYC during my day. I used to drop the coin often, more than often. But now I rarely drop the coin. I do it in what ordinarily would be high pressure situations, like standing near a subway tracks, walking over street grates, while walking through crowds, going up and down escalators, etc. I have developed the precision and understanding of exactly how it's done and why it works and how to make it work best. To me, it's a much more involved sleight to learn than say a finger palm and it enables you to do much more with it.

It's only been recently that I came to "crossover" again with this method in better understanding what great sleevers like Slydini, Rocco and a few others understand about the method. Their smoothness comes from years of understanding the motion, the before and after actions of the arms and hands in presenting an effect. They also have a real deep understanding of the misdirection, subtleness of the of the propulsion (it really doesn't take much) and how it is all intertwined in what you might say and do before and after the occurrance.

In a simpler sense, just keep practicing and better understanding the move. I can sleeve in a variety of ways but Dr. Roberts method to me is by far the best of them for general usage IMHO and is truly worth learning and doing well. Remember the whole action should happen and appear to be one fluid motion. *While this method is for vanishing a coin where a spec's focus is not, I would like to also say here that the method used by Jim Pace is also quite brilliant and when done well is another wonderful presentation in vanishing a coin that a spec is actually focused on. You gotta see it to believe it! Good luck with it all.

-Mb

Thanks a lot for your nice post. Did I mention I was much better with sleeving when I started ?But it got worse later. Now I'm trying to do it slowly and correctly and hopefully later I can do it with regular speed.

Good to hear asgar, keep working on this.

Oh and Pace's method is not for a Miser's Dream, you're right as to that...But it's much better than the Roberts Method for what Pace uses it for, which is one of the most beautiful, cleanest and direct vanishings (as an effect) of a coin that I have seen and used.

Don't confuse the Roberts method with the snap method, that is done at the horizontal point. Also, it doesn't require a big movement with the other hand. In fact, that would be counter productive.

The spectator shouldn't really even think of the hand doing the sleeving. You put a coin in your left hand (let's say) and the right hand drops naturally to your side, and then you immediately sleeve and raise the hand to perform the next normal action for your routine.

As an exercise, sleeve the second the hand hits the lowest point of the swing. Make sure there is hardly any movement of the hand/fingers when you do the sleeving motion, or you aren't using the correct technique.

Asgar, when you put all of this together as I've explained from my own experiences, this is what you can get from it, and the guy actually began (actually teaches it I believe) right from where you're beginning with the Dr. Robert's Method from Bobo's... There should be no question from this that this guy completely understands and has built from that very basic starting point to this expert usage. Believe me, ain't too many people out there doing this as good or any better than this guy or aka there ain't many walking it as good as they may talk it. This guy inspired me more than anyone long ago to keep working on my own use of this important move/sleight. Here, see for yourself...

*Presentation/Demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x21dzSWmPU&feature=related

**And here's a more dynamic presentation of how it all comes together in the real world beyond all the talk, sliderules and diagrams of it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xvyOf_ZMME

Wow, Marion...that fooled me! And I know how it's done! Un-freakin'-REAL.

I tell ya Justin is one to learn from...and hey, YOU, Marion could put out a DVD as well...some of the stuff I've seen you do...

Doug

Not sure that was the best example of the technique, but it does illustrate the need to use techniques sparingly.

SD reminds me so much of Gary Kurtz's routine check it out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ0ZNcrYDEA

Kirk, Can you clarify your post somewhat? I know I probably missed something that you saw but I even watched it again and I still don’t see what you mean. Looked very good to me. I can't see exactly when he is doing it and I know what he is (most likely) doing!

What am I missing? A hint perhaps?

Thanks!

Jim

Yeah Kirk my friend, some curmudgeoned clarity might be helpful.

Clearly his actual uses of the sleight is not the classic Roberts Method but the nuances are born from there and Justin actually teaches it from that basic beginning in his work, as I basically said. I posted the vids to show what happens when you put it so expertly all together in understanding and practice. You don't want to actually use this sleight always as Roberts instructs but more conversationally and within the greater movements of presentation. That's what Justin does in Silver Dream, it's also what Kurtz does in his classic, Full Frontal Assault.

**And thank you mystre for posting that vid of Gary Kurtz, a remarkable worker, one of the very best I have seen with coins over these many years playing with magic. And you're right that the routines are similar. I like the fact in Silver Dream how Justin uses "sound" to exact/signal the second vanish, a very clever change of direction. I also like how Kurtz does that part of his overall presentation from the spec's hand, nice touch. Both routines, Kurtz and Justin Miller's are exceptional IMHO in the basic/advanced uses of sl***ing.

***And hey, thanks Doug for the very good words. Who knows, I just might do a DVD one day...Many people have suggested it to me, so just maybe. Thanks again and glad you like my work.

As Justin Miller performs his Silver Dream, only one of the vanishes involves anything vaguely like the E M Roberts technique. Justin has made his own adjustments to this technique and it works for him brilliantly.

That performance of his in front of the fireplace is a real highlite for me in all of this vast coin vanishing methodology....just astounding.

I agree that sl******, although highly effective in a routine, should be used somewhat sparingly. However using a variety of different sl****** techniques (Silver Dream?Coin Two) within the same routine helps to keep the spec off guard.

The E M Roberts technique is for me the most effective and versatile and foolproof method that I have ever come across.

OK Jim and MB,

Let me expound, although some has already been covered by other posters.

Just cause you use your sleeve, doesn't mean it is EM Roberts. Ditto if you just propel it with your fingers. The EM system is a two fold process. Read the description in Bobo's, I can't go over it here, as this is a public forum, not Secret Sessions. Let's meet over there or have a phone conversation to work out the specifics, or meet me at the Magic Castle.

In the JM Silver Dream, which is just the three vanishes of the coins, he uses three separate methods, none of which is EM Roberts, in my opinion. Even if he calls any of them the EM method. Just saying it, doesn't make it so.

None of this should be construed to take anything away from Justin Miller's really beautiful handling of Silver Dream. It is a great routine and I bought it myself.

That's fine, Kirk. I wasn’t questioning your opinion; I just didn't realize that when you said "Not sure that was the best example of the technique,..." that you were referring to the E.M Roberts method. I thought you were talking about sleeving in general and I thought his use of it looked good.

Thanks again!

Jim

Yes, thanks Kirk and please let me expound also...I like expounding.

2 things here...First of all I didn't say that what Justin Miller was doing was the Roberts Method...More precisely I said he teaches it from the basics of that sleight. No it does not look like the Roberts Method so simplistically laid out in Bobo's but it has a lot of the same thinking (I'm speaking as to the first vanish). That's why when Justin teaches this effect, he begins by going over Roberts way of doing it on the offbeat via the misdirection of placing the coin in the other hand, it is all relative and does not need to be exactly the same for the bones to be recognized from the trail.

I have to also finally say that I just happen to know a thing or two about this genre, about these methods and have discussed them at great lengths...Maybe not at the Magic Castle (though I could) but I feel I can speak intelligently about things here well enough from experience, much like many of you believe you can. So here's another thing that's not exactly the Roberts Method but I leave it for people to decide for themselves on my thoughts about it in the way of talking it and walking it. I'm just saying, here's another example of where you can go when you go even further out on the tree from first learning the deeper nature of this thing from Roberts and from others that mix in from his initial thinking along the way....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfso1HfDEj0

So, I don't know but I'm just saying....

Great topic!
And a great deal of gratitude and thanks goes out to all of you for your very kind words on my material and magic! Thank you.

It is very true that robert's method was my starting point for "my" version of sl;;;;;g items, I even state that on the SD DVD. And with inspiration from cloutier, kurtz and kenner I developed my own way of doin the deed. The most important part of the way I sl;;;e is the stationary hand and the lack of movement in the arm. The fingers do all the work. Like I say on SD, imagine your hands are a picture in a frame, never let your hands or arms leave that frame when doing it.

Oddly enough, kurtz full frontal assault was never an inspiration..but watching chris korn, homer liwag, and kenner was a MAJOR MAJOR influence.
JM

Here is a great video, that is also not EM, but she uses her sleeves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeUqvneZPp8&feature=related

There are a lot of ways to sleeve, just as there,their,, too, two, to. but the proper spelling or naming has significance as to the real, reel meaning.

Kirk my man, I knew you'd have this sort of a comeback here sooner or later, just can't help yourself. What a guy!