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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Fellowship of Christian Magicians! » » Will the FCM be around 20 years from now? » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Kif Anderson
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Not sure what the expression "performers such as myself" means. Isn't it all supposed to be about having a servant's heart? I can certainly appreciate having limited time to do things and having to decide what is important. But to say what is wrong with a convention one doesn't attend...it confuses me. That's kind of like a movie critic reviewing a movie they haven't seen. Oh maybe they saw a previous version, and that is enough to decide they know all about the current.

Churches are a great place to worship, but it is the small group studies that really seem to help people grow the most.

Also one gets a lot more out of "church" when they give more of themselves...and become involved in ministries.

The same is true for FCM. The convention is "church" and chapters are small group meetings. And finding one's niche in it all...say like working on the podcast (now going into its third year of production)...is when one really starts feeling a part of FCM. It isn't "sitting in the pews listening" but getting involved.

And both conventions and chapters tend to be a place to make connections...and it is those connections that produce things. My ministry (Oz & Wilde) certainly has its genesis to be credited to LAFCM.

So naysayers of FCM...I'm afraid you haven't really experienced FCM...and I invite you to take a step of faith and get involved...first in your chapter...then internationally. You will be so blessed.


Or do you stop going to church because they keep preaching out of the same old book and telling the same old stories. I don't know about everyone, but I get something out of the convention every time I go.

><> J
We are not cisterns made for hoarding, we are channels made for sharing. - Billy Graham
<BR>
<BR>Sharing the gospel with Comedy & Illusion www.ozandwilde.com
MagicBus
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Well Kif, I too am not "everyone", but I can honestly say I had a blast at this year's very worthwhile 2010 convention (I attended the last 3 days). I learned stuff/got some new great ideas/had a good time "fellowshipping" and maybe most importantly- got inspired to practice on a much more disciplined basis.
bjharris
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Kif,

Meant nothing by the statement "performers such as myself" other than that I'm ready to go to another level in my craft, and that the current convention doesn't provide that opportunity for me.

Regarding judging a convention that I haven't been to, I have attended 9 International FCM conferences, over 20 regional ones, and participated in a chapter for over 3 years. I have been close, personal friends with multiple FCM presidents and other members of the executive committee. All of this has taken place in the last 15 years. This is obviously simply my own opinion, but yes, I do feel qualified and entitled to share my opinion, based on quite a bit of experience. In fact, I'd even go out on a limb to say that I potentially attended more FCM activities in a 10 year period than 98% of the other members. The only exceptions would be those who were regular lecturers at regional conventions across the country.

Sure, it's all about having a servants heart, but one can only serve so much. I spend about 2 months of my year performing internationally, and raise or set aside my own money to make that missions work possible.

I spent the last 4 years helping plant a church, serving hours per week in multiple fashions. Now, we're going through the same process again in a new city. In addition, that includes serving the people who live within the community we desire to reach.

I spent 10 years lecturing and performing and attending different facets of the FCM. I learned a lot, and I served a lot. Then I began noticing that the areas in which my strengths were located, simply weren't valued by the people who attend FCM. So in an effort to be a good steward of my time and talents, I've simply found it wiser to reserve that offered help for those who value it. I don't really see a negative in that.

While I see the point of your "getting more out of church by putting more in" statement, it isn't really applicable 100% of the time. I could go on and explain this in its entirety, but don't think it's necessary, because it's the same example I just used above. There are just times to stick with things, and there are times to move on. Everyone's resources are limited, and we have to steward them in a way that we get the most out of them, from the perspective of serving others, and yes, even for yourselves. The resources I invest in myself, allow me to serve others better. I know my limits, my budget, my relationship with my wife, and I've learned over the years what is necessary to reserver for myself, that allows me to be great at serving others. The link I posted above is simply the best expression I can think that would allow me to accomplish everything I've just mentioned to the best of my abilities.

For the record, I'd like to repeat that I've come to the conclusion that the FCM plays an important role for many people. It certainly played a role in my life. I just think it's time that some others came together in an effort to serve those who the FCM can't or isn't serving. That's all. There are quite a few of those people other than just me, and their reasoning is valid.
marklock
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BJ, I'm very interested in your conference. And I think I understand what you are trying to do. Sorry I haven't been available by phone lately. Getting NYWC ready to launch and PW after that.

It's important not to cast judgment on FCM, I think you are making that attempt, but it will definitely be a sensitive topic with some.

Blessings to all.
Kif Anderson
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BJ -

Thanks for clarifying your credentials with FCM. I do know you have been on the cover of the magazine a couple of times, but since my involvement with the convention at an international level only goes back to 2006, I guess I missed when you were there.

As there are many who feel the convention needs to "step up a level", others think it is fine the way it is. I admit to being somewhere in between those two houses of thought. And there are changes that have taken place under the Wilson administration that I think are pushing it in a more positive direction. However, things like the elimination of competitions, not sure that is such a good thing. But this is the last year of the current board...and while the incumbents were all "recommended" by the nominating committee, I suspect there will be a few new faces on the board come the end of the convention next year. Just have to see how voting goes.

><> J
We are not cisterns made for hoarding, we are channels made for sharing. - Billy Graham
<BR>
<BR>Sharing the gospel with Comedy & Illusion www.ozandwilde.com
MagicBus
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My Ramble-O-Gram/two cents/take with a grain of salt/not meaning to step on any toes/consider the inexperienced source comments (you may want to drink a Coke first to stay awake):

My only hesitation/sadness in all this is I'd love to see BJ do his thing at a future (such as 2011) FCM convention. In an ideal world, it would be fantastic to have ADVANCE, BJ's special training, and some stuff perhaps only now available at regional events, all rolled into/available at the FCM international convention at IWU. I cannot think of a better facility than Indiana Wesleyan- it has multiple beautiful stages, classrooms and meeting areas- really top notch. Sure beats being in a hotel ballroom somewhere while paying hotel rates just to be there. Plus, it's hard to beat having the multiple dealers, auction, etc.. My only hesitation is that my resources are limited too- the thought of having to drive to Pigeon Forge or Pittsburgh or wherever to attend multiple conferences is not great for my pocket book- or limited vacation time schedule- of course I would prefer having all the options above in one yearly super duper location.

As long as we are airing new ideas here... and I know this suggestion may not be too popular with the dealers... but I think with all the room available at IWU: Anybody wanting to sell even used magic there should be allowed to set up a table-maybe pay a small table fee or something if absolutely necessary. I know I did that about 1977 or so at Winona Lake when I sold off most of my stuff to help pay for my college tuition. The lecturers should also be allowed to sell whatever they want- no limits. This sounds crazy- but does it work?

At the 2010 Michigan Magic Day (sponsored by IBM Ring 211) we tried exactly this radical approach- no (zip, zero) dealer or table fees whatsoever and no restrictions. Anybody could come, sell what they wanted, in any amount. This turned out to be and was a huge success- the professional dealers reported better sales than in previous years AND the attenders loved it as they could scour through, comb through and buy both new and used items from a variety of folks selling all kinds of stuff if they so desired. I ended up buying a pile of old Christian Conjurer magazines that I discovered there of all things.

Now the FCM professional dealers at first blush would not like it as it may mean less money for them, but Ring 211 decided Michigan Magic Day (a two day event) was for the benefit of all the paid attenders, and was not set up or designed to make the most money for the professional dealers who may want to sell their wares (who of course all showed up anyway). Anddddd, I think more even new magicians showed up eager to look for used bargains otherwise not available from the "standard" dealers. Just something to consider if the space at IWU is available.

I do know of several gents who are FCM members who are fine craftsmen with just a few items to sell- but no venue to do it at the tradtional FCM convetion. At Abbott's now- the "street dealers" have tents set up near the high school- some people show up in part in August in Colon just to eagerly visit those used dealer tents. I admit I am one of those bargain hunters. No dealer hours, no rules. I know I look forward to going to the multiple folding tables set up there every year. Abbott's/FAB Magic reports that 2010 was one of their best attended years- while other conventions have been declining in numbers.

Anyway, just my thought that I sure don't like the idea of limiting multiple magical options for whatever "level" either at FCM- just would love to have it all in one grand site yearly. It should be about what is best for all the members to improve- and who may be making what (in terms of money) not being an issue. This could actually happen by changing a "policy" or two?- I don't know.

This may sound crazy as well- but I'd love it if ADVANCE or BJ's event could all take place during the FCM convention even at the same time- let the attender select what he wants to go to including paying extra for other available training. Hey, Ring 211 "sponsors" paid lecturers all the time- it helps the Ring members get better and it matters not to us that touring lecturers make money off of us. We pay them by our own choice- we end up having at least one and often two great new lectures a month. We don't have to "control" everything or worry about who is making what.

Or perhaps have this type of otherwise apparently previously not available level of experience (whatever it may be BJ is referring too- I am still not quite sure what this next "level" is we're talking about here)--- maybe be available every other year or so right at the FCM convention. WOW! Even if there was an extra fee-hey- like in Ring 211- we pay extra to attend apecial lectures. In any case- make whatever it is out there applicable to fine Gospel magic available at the FCM convention where everybody can show up at one central location... rather than spread it out all over the country in various cities.

OK, okay, this begging above is very selfish of me. Please don't make me chose- let's see- do I have enought money for Gospel magic training at ADVANCE (which sounds terrific), then go to the FCM convention (which I love), then BJ's conference, then the nearest FCM regional event?... Help- I'm running out of dough and my wife is starting to take it personally!

Another example of where this "one stop" idea has worked: I served in the Federal Bar Association for the State of Michigan. We started a statewide bankruptcy conference each year 23 years ago- and year after year the conference was dominated by professor types or those specializing in large corporate cases (as the judges in "power" had the most interest in that particular area of bankruptcy law). Then, about 1999, the consumer bankruptcy lawyers basically demanded a dual track for consumer oriented legal education---so we (the lawyers who specialize in consumer cases and stay away from corporate Chapter 11 work) would not have to year after year have to listen to speech after "boring" speech in areas of business law we had almost no interest in. It would be like watching card lecture after card lecture when you do not even do close-up.

Fast forward to 2010: we had a record FBA conference attendance in Traverse City. We jammed every corner of the large Park Place hotel complex. The consumer "tracks" we battled to set up had triple the "sign ups" attendance of the previously established "normal" tracks (that were only ones available before and we all had to sit through). But- here's the neat thing- the whole group/organization has managed to stay together- so we still have a huge big banquet together, a big time guest speaker, joint breakfasts... and continue to meet together as a big happy family of bankruptcy judges, professors, creditors, bank AND consumer debtor attorneys. Best of all worlds! We did not find it necessary to start our own consumer "convention" so we could get instruction in the areas that was previously lacking. And as a group (the FBA of West Michigan) we are larger than ever before- one of the best bankruptcy legal sub groups in the U.S. with some lawyers coming from other states to our "Michigan" seminar. Not to mention- all the legal "vendors" (books, software, accounting services)are more there than ever before at our one grand yearly statewide convention site. But none of this would have happened if the original event organizers (mostly judges)had not first consented to give up some areas of conference "control" to us "in the trenches" type consumer lawyers for getting the educational tracks we were interested in...

So BJ, if at all possible, if you could do your thing through the FCM international convention- WOW- I'd welcome that and would greatly look forward to considering it as part of my 2011 FCM convention experience- even paying an extra fee to attend what you are offering. I hope this is not all pie in the sky, but that would certianly be on my selfish wish list...

Have a great day all, and thanks for being in the FCM and participating on The Magic Café'- much appreciated- and I enjoy daily reading all your comments.

-Roger Magic Bus from http://www.ChristianMagician.org (and yep, we're doing some more filming on 9-29-2010 in Kalamazoo)
bjharris
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Mark - Definitely not trying to cast judgement, and doing my best to communicate in an honest way that isn't too judgmental. At the same time, I'm trying to be constructively honest, and hope my words don't come across too negative. This is all new thought for me...I've never devoted much time to processing it all until I started toying w/ the conference idea. In the process, I've discovered that there are things that need to be discussed. And yes, it's difficult to find a way for us to talk about it all, as you said, without it being sensitive to some people.

Kif - I think the FCM does need to step it up a little, however, I'm not sure it makes sense to. I used to have the opinion that everything about both the organization and the convention should change. However, I was younger and more prideful, and I've developed a healthier perspective. Now I once again see the value of the FCM. I now realize that there are necessary steps that would be required to make it better than what it is.

To truly raise the level, the financial structure would have to change, which would then keep many who need and love to be there away, and that isn't good for anyone, or the Kingdom. At the same time, in order to keep the convention affordable to these folks, the necessary budget will never exist to produce the convention on a level much higher than it currently is. People could obviously debate about the money topic, and have been for years, but that's just the way it is. There's no getting around it.

That being said, I think the FCM should just continue to serve who it has been serving in the same capacity. It does a great job at that, and there are clearly a lot of people who gain a lot of value from both the organization and it's conventions and chapters. Again, I certainly did growing up.

With the recognition of that "higher level", also come questions like:

When will that happen?
How will that happen?
Who will step up to lead it?

No better time than now I suppose to get it started. I already have many highly recognizable names in the FCM who will be participating, as well as names from the mainstream world of magic, and I'm excited to share them with you soon.

Finally, Roger...regarding your comments...

While I think this is an awesome idea, and something that has proven to actually work in other events in the past, I can't see this happening at FCM. I think that when you learn more about what I've been working on and the experience I've been crafting and creating, you'll have a better understanding why the two just wouldn't mesh together.

However, a one day version of something like it could most definitely work, and I certainly understand why you could only justify making it to one convention a year. Honestly, there's nothing wrong with that. Plus, Substance, the conference I'm putting together, will not be for everyone. You may end up discovering that it just isn't for you, thus removing the need for you to be there. Time will tell...again, excited to share more in the near future.

This all really comes down to money, doesn't it?

Some want the FCM to be better. They're willing to pay, but not everyone is willing to pay. And the FCM would be divided by catering to both professionals and amateurs. Professionals don't just expect more...they need it in order to justify the expense and time off not working. Amateurs desire more, but though it is out of their control, they just don't have the resources to justify the need of expensive training from and for other professionals.

It's just the way it is. Plus, I honestly can't figure out the leadership's thinking and reasoning on the break down of expenses regarding how resources are used to produce a convention.

From what I've been told, (and many of the records have been made public), the FCM has spent thousands of dollars bringing in Southern Gospel singers. I'm sure that's an inspiration and valuable entertainment to many in attendance, but I'm not sure it adds much value to the training and education attendees receive by the time they head back home. Yet for some reason, it continues to be considered a necessary expense.

I don't understand that, but I'm willing to accept it if that's what all of the members want. But what that communicates to me is, "We're willing to pay professionals, just not you, because you actually do magic, and we don't pay magicians. But if you're a performing artist that performs an art that we don't actually teach here at our convention, let us know....we'd love to consider booking you, feeding you, paying you, and taking care of your travel and lodging."

To me, that says, "We don't value what you have to share, unless you're willing to pay US for the opportunity to LET you share it."

I'm supposed to pay to get there, stay there, be fed while there, and personally cover all of the associated conference expenses, PLUS give up a weeks worth of income that I have to make up in other places in order to pay my bills, (since I perform for a living), and you aren't willing to give me a penny? And if questioned, the response is, "It's about serving."

I'd be more interested in making the huge sacrifice it requires of me to serve, if I knew there wasn't another act getting handsomely paid for doing less than what lecturers contribute.

Just being honest...
bjharris
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P.S. This all goes back to my original point: Let's call the FCM what it is, celebrate what is has, is, and will continue to do as long as possible for all of the members who enjoy and learn from it. In the mean time, let's do what is necessary to train Christ-following performers who are seeking out additional education in their field.
MagicBus
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Points well taken BJ. When I speak at the FBA seminars (which are fairly expensive to register for), and even if I am only part of a panel discussion, the organizers waive/pay for all my registration fees and food expenses. I think only the main speakers (usually out of town law professors or judges) get their travel expenses and rooms paid for. So you are correct, convention planners like Hank Morehouse at Abbott's no doubt first try to get as many workers as they can for free (like the volunteers who work on the large stage crew), but then they do pay their feature acts no doubt. Of course, they sell expensive public tickets for the evening programs and charge larger registration fees to the cover lecture costs. But they have an ongoing profit motive as well.

I think FCM probably could get many ongoing lecturers to continue on "for free"- guys like myself consider it an honor to contribute our time in that small way- no fee required. The Late Show- right on!- keep these opportunities open. But if low fees are holding back getting top quality performers for the evening programs-of course they should be paid if that is required even if it means an increase in registration costs. And if a special lecture series is being provided at the FCM convention, such as ADVANCE, I would welcome being charged "extra" for that- many conventions do the same for extra ticketed events. Abbott's, for example, has a separate fee to attend the Saturday afternoon program. Some charge more even for "meet and greet" events (such as at the World Magic Seminar).

It is just my hope that these many worthwhile events for the advancement of good Gospel magic does not end up fragmented and held all over the country--- I really would like to have the exposure to as many fellow performers and teachers as possible without having to go to three different events to achieve that end. Lots of organizations (like the beauty industry show my wife travels to at the huge McCormack Place in Chicago)do that quite well- all events held under one enormous roof and the attenders pick and chose what topics they are interested in without sacrificing quality. Abbott's summer convention now features both stage and close-up magic, even one Gospel magic lecture by Duane Laflin each year, so there is plenty for everyone to benefit from.

So to the brass of the FCM (who I really do not know very well): dream on, think big, do what benefits the members the most, keep worthwhile tradtions and start new ones, be open to new ideas (such as allowing someone as yourself to present a paid seminar), share the "control" as much as possible, but of course stay true to the core Biblical principles of the organization: Excellence in the Spread of the Good News through performance, etc.... and of course- no voodoo or shady huckster lessons allowed. Psalm 67! Roger
Sam Sandler
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I am excited that this topic is being discussed
I too have talked with the higher up about these issuses a few years ago.
and still invovled with my (not so local) FCM chapter. its a 2 hour drive for me!

here is what is bothering me right now however there are over 400 views of this topic yet only 8 people making comments.

I understand not every one will comment but we need the voice of members to speak up.

BJ you have brought some very important things to the forefront and I hope and pray that this will not fall to the wayside.

I enjoyed my time at FCM convention yet I too was struggling with the fact that I did not get paid for my time and efforts. before I agreed to go I spent some serious time in prayer and felt the Lord telling me to just go and serve and he would provide for me. He did. and still does.

hmm where am I going with this- I guess I am saying that this is not the first time these things have been discussed and wont be the last and not sure when and if they will change. I struggle with the amount of lectures given as it makes it very difficult for the attendees to pick and choose what to attend. to charge for a dealer table and then ask them to lecture for free just seems out of place for me. I understand as they say "its a labor of Love" I get that but as BJ points out there are some issuses that need to be delt with.

so lets keep this alive and those of you just browsing the topic Please chime in especially if you are a member of FCM this is your time to voice your thoughts.

Lord - I pray that your hand would be on this topic and that you will guide and direct our paths as we discuss and brainstorm. I also pray that your will be done not ours please help us to see you through all of this and that what ever changes are made will be glorifying to you. in Messiah Jesus , amen

sam
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harris
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I am not a member of FCM (yet).

I do have experience with a Praise and Worship Team. It is a blessing to share at our church and at Fishers of Men events around the region.

It takes more than knowing right and wrong
takes more than singing Gospel songs....

The message whether from gospel illusions, song or this thread...needs to be about our Savior.

God will sort it out.

I acknowledge that even at local events..folks pay for say food and soft drinks, but want loyal and trusted servants to donate.

It is an interesting discussion. I pray for the outcome that will glorify God.

Harris
still 2 old to know everything...
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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bjharris
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Sam,

Thanks for your comments. I agree...only a few people are taking part in this conversation, yet it's up to 550 views now. I have no idea what that means, or what to make of it, but I'm with you...I would really, really like to know what others think about some of these issues.

I'll join in on your prayer that whatever comes of it glorifies the God we all do this stuff for.

Thank you to the 5 or so FCM folks out of hundreds who have taken the time to care and contribute. Your comments and feedback have already significantly played a role in me gaining more perspective, and I don't take them for granted.

Harris
Signor Blitz
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The FCM will be around 20 years from now - and I wouldbet that it would be much like it is today.

I am not saying that to be an Oscar Meyer (a weenie) but anyof youout there that are actually professional Christians (code lingo for pastors) KNOW that change (even though it maybe for the best) isvery slow - especially when it comes to faith based groups.

Is it a bad thing? I'll let you decide for yourself- but I believe that there will be a gathering of good hearted Christians that want to actually make a difference and have the calling to Advance Gods kingdom in the name of Christ will still gather 20 years from now.

I am not saying that there is not room for improvment - what has chased me away from National involvment is the lack of "doing it with excellence". The "good enough" mentality and the lack of common sence did it for me (at least for the time) I am sure as I am sitting in my basement - in my PJ's a 2am that when I do get involved again on the National level in 20 years it will be the same - but I will be in a different place in my life and with Gods help, I'll be more accepting of the lack of excellance.

Even though we are Christians - Let the slamming of this post begin!
Sam Sandler
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BJ- you are welcome and my hope is to see more involved thus hopefully moving FCM forward

Signor Blitz-- whats to slam you did what I asked "get Involved" I don't think sharing your thoughts will get you slammed although I understand your fears.

I have to agree the lack of excelence is a huge issue that needs to be adressed.

I have witnessed many acts and when talking with them I am surprised to learn that they are more concerned about the message they want to share rather then the way they share it.

let me explain- in my lecture I talk about "earning the right to be heard" this means when I do a show I perform many routines that have nothing to do with God, the bible, church etc before I ever mention why I am there. the point is to love your audience and have some fun show them you care and then they will be much more receptive to your sharing hte gospel or a bible lesson.

I am not giving up the whole lecture here that is just a small point but goes along with what BJ and others are saying that we need to present a show that is well prepared and presented with excellence and we need to do this so that our audiences will be more receptive to what we share.


OK so having Signor chime in is great but that is only 1 of the hundreds apparently reading this thread!

who else is out there that wants to join in expressing their thoughts and feelings.
\
this is your time and your place to have a voice!

sam
sam sandler- America's only full-time DEAF Illusionist
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Dan Bernier
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I'll chime in. Smile

Quote:
On 2010-09-05 13:42, Sam Sandler wrote:
I have witnessed many acts and when talking with them I am surprised to learn that they are more concerned about the message they want to share rather then the way they share it.

let me explain- in my lecture I talk about "earning the right to be heard" this means when I do a show I perform many routines that have nothing to do with God, the bible, church etc before I ever mention why I am there. the point is to love your audience and have some fun show them you care and then they will be much more receptive to your sharing hte gospel or a bible lesson.


sam


This is the kind of tactic that I am personally against. IMOA we do not earn any rights to talk about God just because we performed for them and got their attention. Those rights were already given to us by God, and the law protects that right as much as it protects others too.

Your audience should know what they are getting into when attending a magic show. Why feel like we have to hide our true motivations and intent, unless it's not actually our true motivation and intentions? It might make some more receptable to the message but why does it? What about the others who might feel like they have been ambushed.

As Gospel magicians, our message should always be more important than a few tricks. And, just because we can add Christian patter to a magic trick doesn't make the trick anymore important.

As Gospel magicians we are both entertainers and witnesses for God. Anything we do for God should be done to the best our our abilities. However, if someone isn't great at performing magic, but is spiritually gifted when preaching and teaching the message of Jesus Christ then they are doing much better than many of the Gospel magicians who continue to put more emphasise on the tricks than the message.

I realize that there needs to be a balance, but the message we are sharing should always be first priority. I would be more impressed with a Gospel magician who wasn't that great of a magician but was able to deliver the message with conviction and authority than a Gospel magician who is great at performing tricks, and weak on sharing the message.

As a member of FCM the only benefit I've been able to take from FCM is the magazine, but lately the magazine itself has become a bit of a bore. (This is my opinion).

I have not been able to attend the conference yet, but I do hope to one day, at least for the experience anyways.

FCM can only be as good as the members, and it takes commitment on everyone's part to keep FCM around for the next 20 years. Although I cannot reap as many benefits of others who are able to attend the conferences in the States every year I still support the FCM by my membership.

Well, that's my 2 bits. Smile
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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Dan,

I don't know Sam personally, but I don't think that by "right" he means what you're referring to. I think he's simply trying to say that if people like you, they'll care a little more about what you have to say. And if you simply aren't good at what you do, especially to the point that people are negative towards their experience with you, your message loses some credibility. It doesn't make the message any less true...we all know that. However, though a bad show doesn't always equal an untrue message, a bad show does impact both the attentiveness and trust of the audience.

Put on sequined vest, pull out some feather plumes, and then go walk on stage in front of a bunch of high school kids in a well-off American suburb. It doesn't matter how true your message is, or the fact that the Word of God doesn't return void. Your audience won't even hear the Word, because you lost them w/ the quality and relevance of your presentation, the moment you walked on stage.

Quality presentation means people will hear your message.

Bad presentation means that many of them won't.

This is not about our message being more priority over the magic, or vice versa. The medium IS part of the message, actions speak louder than words, and the way we perform says a lot...way before we open our mouths to speak.

All that being said, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your willingness to share your honest comments. Both the ones I've responded to above, and the other parts of what you shared are incredibly beneficial to the conversation. Thanks for joining it!

Harris
Sam Sandler
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BJ- YES that is what I meant! thanks for your insite and decifering what I meant:)

first let me apologize I wrote my comments just before I had to leave and did not really have the time I should have taken. I will also say that god has gifted me with speaking well but some how I get lost when I try to write my thoughts.

I did not get into the details of wh at I wanted to say but BJ nailed it on the head Bingo that's what I am refering too.

My good friend toby travis (whom I toured with ages ago) does this as well. so does Andre they both perform a large portion of their show prior to sharing the gospel WHY becasue they are establishing credibility! the audience is witnessing the impossible they are laughing they are having a great time they have gotten to know you "the performer" a little bit YOU now have a relationship with the audience and when You go to share the gospel or a message you will have many more ears hearing your words.


YES the gospel is the most important part of your show however if it falls on deaf ears you have missed the mark.

we as Gospel or christian magicians are to love our audience and present the best show we can to our ability we also need to understand that in order to be more effective witness we need to Earn that right ot be heard or maybe I should say create the atmosphere that people will want to listen to YOU.

when I work with christian organizations doing street witnessing I do 3 or 4 cool things before I share anything about God. sometimes I talk about me and my life do a trick talk some more do a few more tricks then get into the nitty gritty stuff.

in my own illusion show just prior to sharing the gospel I tell the audience what I am about to do and offer that if any one does not want to listen feel free to leave. I take a 40 second break as my assistant brings out the table with my magic and info on it and then away I go. I can not remember any one ever leaving.

sure I got some nasty comment cards but I planted that seed and that's my job to palnt seeds! and I feel they stayed becasue they got to know me as a person during my show and felt that there was a valuse in staying to hear what I had to say.

they will know we are believers by our love.

I am excited to see yet another person chime it lets keep it going.
sam sandler- America's only full-time DEAF Illusionist
http://www.samsandler.com
http://www.deafinitelymagic.com
Dan Bernier
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Thanks Harris for the kind words.

I too believe it's important as Christians to always aim to do our best in anything we do, and I agree with your statement.

However, I also have seen too much emphasise on the magic while down playing the importance of the message. Like I said, there has to obviously be a balance.

Perhaps my faith that God honours those who earnestly seek Him first has me believe that a faithful servant will be motivated spiritually to do his/her best for God.

Using our talents and skills for God is a type of worship. We should worship God in all we do. If we perform magic, we should worship God with it. And, if we are worshipping God with our talents, I believe that anything we worship God with should be our best, whatever level of skill we may have at the time, ever growing and improving.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
Dan Bernier
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Quote:
On 2010-09-05 20:36, Sam Sandler wrote:
I will also say that god has gifted me with speaking well but some how I get lost when I try to write my thoughts.



I can totally relate to that. I am able to speak very well, and I too believe that God has gifted me with speaking well. But, when it comes to writing...well, not so giftd. Smile
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
Sam Sandler
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Gospel Dan

Yes very well said my friend. it is indeed worship.
sam sandler- America's only full-time DEAF Illusionist
http://www.samsandler.com
http://www.deafinitelymagic.com
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