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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
I believe that a professional should always use quality props, but when I see magicians on this forum buying thousands of dollars worth of props I wonder if they are just working to support the large prop manufacturers. How many shows do you have to do to recoop your five figure investment. My brief case has a little over $1,000 worth of props in it, and a show full of Wolf, or Axtell magic would add another zero to my expenses. Even though I love to entertain children I also love to eat.
My friend Andy Comic brought this up on another forum, and I wanted to bring it up here.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
These days I invest more in writing, practice and brainstorming.
Seems to have paid off in a wonderful summer full of shows. Now back to my regular gig (school community counselor) with the pitter patter of 3800 high schooler's feet..(1900 x 2)..... Been buying a few more minor key harmonicas this summer as replacements...Ah the days of a 5 dollar harp are long gone. (Lee Oskars now go from 30-43 USA dollars) Harris have I shown you my 3 minutes with a stick...(no not a flip stick just a stick off a tree) deutsch
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
Its a really good question Al. I'd love an Axtel animatronic dragon, but as a toy for me.
It seems to me most kids are as or more entertained by a $12.00 bag of sculpting balloons. Posted: Aug 13, 2010 10:46am Hi Harris, Not to hijack the thread but... do you just play harmonica or harmonica and chromonica? I noodle around with both.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
I use a diatonic. Been playing since college (early 70's) My teacher can get 63 notes (with 1/2 1/4 bends of course). Music is a great way to "Add" value and entertainment to my programs. I remember doing a gig down in the 18th and Vine district of Kansas City. I used blues and vent. One man came up after and said...lose the puppet. Though I love blues and other music, I have chosen to keep the vent and the puppets. It (music and parody songs with the harp or ukulele also lets me create specific bits to fit the venue, age and other audience demographics. I do appreciate Axtell puppets will bring my chimp out for next summer's library shows. Wolf also puts out fun and quality stuff, just not for me.(at this time...always have the right to use the right prop at the right time in the future.
Harris still 2 old to know everything...
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
Funny, I started in college too. I played violin for 15 years but dropped it when I went to college. Half way through college though I picked up a basic Honer and book called "Rock and Blues Harmonica" and learn the pure joy of improvisation. I can bend a little, not a lot. But I do a good vibrato and I just get joy out of it. I also play guitar chords to center my singing (though I play guitar like a violinist. I can't bar but I can do incredibly complex open chords relatively easily. You should see the monster that is my F )
Violin was always for my teachers, my parents and my orchestra conductor. Harmonica and singing, are for me
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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Mr. Pitts Inner circle David Pitts 1058 Posts |
I'm always aware of cost vs. revenue in props and advertising. It's partially my nature, partially my no nonsense wife (when it comes to money). When I built Henry, I was very aware that I was going to have to justify the value of this "toy" with income directly related to him. I kept him under $200 because I built him myself. I've since invested a couple hundred more in costuming. But he's made me thousands. I think having this mindset has kept me from aquiring a lot of crap I don't use. I have some of course, but not much. I consider every purchase pretty carefully, and have ended up developing a good eye for what I'll actually use. Of course, there's a downside as I tend to be a little too cheap, and I need to work on my act's overall look. It's getting a little scruffy looking and it takes so little effort to make a big difference in the appearance. It's much easier to put fresh paint on a prop or get a jacket dry cleaned than to learn a new routine, and these little things can really improve the overall perception of the act by our audience.
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
On the other hand, when I used to attend the local ring (auctions and meetings) more often, my supportive wife was one of the few who encouraged her husband(me) to buy certain props. (Annie has a good eye for what works and especially would work in my Doctor of Laughology Programs)
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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c.mcbrien New user Chicagoland 52 Posts |
I've stayed at nice hotels with nice furniture, nice rooms, hot tubs...
And the staff were snobby, stupid and ultimately rude and acted like I was lucky to be there. Or, they just acted like they didn't have a clue as to how to run the hotel or what customer service was. I've stayed at mid rate hotels and it wasn't as nice looking, but the staff made me feel at home and were completely on top of things. I go back to those because I feel like at a "home away from home". If you can't get in front of kids and entertain them with just your personality and the comedy you've developed WITHOUT a bunch of expensive (or inexpensive)props...all the props, expensive or not, will not turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. You're audience will be the first to point that out to you, BTW.
"Drama and ego are great for the stage, but when I'm off the stage, I drop all that crap..and don't put up with any!"
http://www.chrismcbrien.com |
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Mr. Pitts Inner circle David Pitts 1058 Posts |
You're right McBrien. I consider MYSELF a comedian for kids, the comedy and my personality are the main thing. But that's not so easy to sell, parents don't always get that. I think, and this has been discussed in other threads, that there's a certain amount of presentation that parents want to see when they're trying to decide who to hire. For the most part, they're making the buying decision, and I have found it helpful to give them things.. labels.. props.. to get their head around. I have adjusted my advertising and my act in both directions.. closer to pure stand-up and then back again to 'magic circus' and 'ventriloquist' in terms of labels and appearances. The most important thing by far is that I make them laugh and leave them with the feeling that they hired the right entertainer. But if they don't know me, the trappings can help make the initial sale.
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Al -
What do you consider to be the right percentage of show income, to be spent on new props and costume? And why does that "rule" have to be followed by other performers? Can't they determine that for themselves? Can it differ for those who are full time, and those who are part time? As we've talked about on other threads, there are many out there who do magic part time, and are inclined to spend some income from their other job on their "hobby" of magic (just like other people spend money on their hobbies). So, they might spend a higher percentage (maybe even more than they make from performing), in some cases. Are you trying to imply this is wrong? Also, if a full time performer is earning $100K from shows, wouldn't it be reasonable that they spend $10,000-$20,000 on new props (10-20%)? Another consideration would be if they've been performing for a long time, or a short time. Because that can affect whether they've built an established show, and had more time to test material that is right for them. The way I see it, it's totally possible for a full time performer, or a part time performer, to invest that type of money, and for different reasons. Of the income earned by a performer, what percentages should be spent where? BTW, I had a great conversation with another performer last week, and we talked about how much to spend going to live events (conferences, conventions, workshops, lectures), and return on investment. That's another great topic. - Donald P.S. BTW, I'm not saying that I invest 10%-20% of my income in props / costume, or any specific amount. I'm just talking about the subject.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Frank Douglas Special user 555 Posts |
Don
I sure I don't need to tell you, those conferences, conventions, workshops, and lecture trips are deductable expenses for working pros.... cost of dong business as an education expense. Props and costumes are amortizable deductions as well. Milage to and from gigs. Etc, etc, etc. Cheers Frank |
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Scott Burton Inner circle 1131 Posts |
When I was starting my full-time business 4 years ago (primarily kids shows at the time), I tried not to spend more on new props for the show than the selling price of 1 of the shows. So, for a $100 show I would try not to spend more than $100 on new equipment, for $500 show..., for $1000 show,..., etc, etc, etc. Sometimes I did get up to 2x's the selling price but not often. This made sure that the economics made sense (why spent $$$s that the client wouldn't want to pay more for proportionally).
Now that I've narrowed things down to a couple of solid acts for kids, I haven't spent more than a few dollars in this area for at least a couple of years. Currently, I'm primarily in corporate mentalism and business speaking/training, I'm lucky that props represent 1/10th or less of the price of a single performance. By my own standards for MY own business, it would be totally justifiable to spend $5000 on a prop if I could sell the show for $5000 - $10000 each. Just saying the standard that I placed on myself and it's worked out very well. For conferences etc, it's definitely important to evaluate the ROI and opportunity costs. But, for any business, such cost and ROI calculations are vital to making a business work. |
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
Tax deductibility is a great thing, but its only as valuable as the income you have to be offset. (If your going to do mileage, keep a log of the odometer at the start and stop of every trip or the govt can refuse you the deduction .)
I think the key here is business plan. By the time you start investing tens of thousands of dollars in equipment for *any* business, you better have a solid plan on how its going to make you more money then it costs.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Also, some performers are investing money up front (from various sources), and some are investing money from show income back into their business. I consider those to be different. One is thinking I need to spend "before" and one is thinking I need to spend "after."
- Donald P.S. Scott, I'm confused about something. For investing the same amount as the price of the show. Are you talking about not carrying more than $200 worth of props for a $200 birthday show, and not spending more than that? Even if you do the show dozens of, possibly up to a hundred or more, times in a year?
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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c.mcbrien New user Chicagoland 52 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-08-13 12:57, Mr. Pitts wrote: I completely agree, but as you said, first and foremost...comedian. Remember the hotel analogy. If you are a great entertainer, there's NOTHING wrong with having some fun, colorful props. However, the key to keeping business coming in is to be an entertainer first and foremost. The people running that fancy hotel...they had the props, just not the know how of how to treat their guests. My vent puppets are colorful and not "scary", and I use some fun looking props...but those are secondary. I think we're actually agreeing here....
"Drama and ego are great for the stage, but when I'm off the stage, I drop all that crap..and don't put up with any!"
http://www.chrismcbrien.com |
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rossmacrae Inner circle Arlington, Virginia 2475 Posts |
"Back in the day", it was a jarring change to realize that my love of magic, and hangin' out at the brick-and-mortar magic shop, I was buying many props and books I'd never use.
I had to decide whether I was in a hobby or a business. And despite our "duty" to support our local magic shop, it seems that the major function of a shop is not to sell one or two illusions, but a thousand decks of trick cards and a few fake dog poops. |
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
Interesting question and I am glad Al brought it up for discussion. There are certainly many points to this and a lot of folks have their own take on it.
I think we can all agree that a magician should use quality props in the shows he or she puts on. If you want to be seen as a professional, you need to look like one. So whatever props you are using (pricey or not) they need to be of quality. I also totally agree with Chris in that no amount of fancy props is going to make you a better performer. You need to be sure that you have a good show regardless of the props you utilize. A great performer will be able to entertain an audience with little to no props at all. The props do not make the magician. With this said, I do feel that you can buy a pricey prop if you feel it adds :avlue†to the show and you can regain that investment back through the shows you are doing. Every time I buy a new prop I go through the process of really seeing is 1) it is right for the show 2) it fits the markets I am performing 3) I will be able to utilize it frequently and 4) the cost of it vs. how much I can gain back based on the value it adds to the show itself. Now some props I have added to the show are pricey. However, they have paid me back time and again. My chair suspension has paid me back ten-fold at least with the value it has added to my show. My sword basket illusion can be seen the same way. Both get used a lot and both add value to the shows I offer. I do also agree with others in that there is a perception folks do have for what they expect to see from a magician they hire. This is not to say this perception is always right. However, lay people do seem to think that when hiring a magician, fancy props means better. You and I know this is not the case at all. However, it is a real perception one must be willing to face frequently when dealing with clients. If you choose to have a show that is more minimal in nature, be prepared to be able to show the client how you meet their needs and exceed their expectations based on your ability to entertain. As Donald also stated, there is a theory of thought that one must realize that different folks bring in different levels of income from their magic. A good business man will realize that a certain percentage of profit based income can go back into the show. This percentage does and will change from performer to performer. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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Mr. Pitts Inner circle David Pitts 1058 Posts |
I think we are in agreement Mr. McBrian. One thing I'll ad to your hotel analogy.. if I present myself as a five star hotel, and I deliver a 3 star performance, it's much worse than presenting myself as a 2 star hotel and delivering a 3 star performance. I definitely want to exceed whatever expectation I create in the mind of the customer.
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
Mr. Pitts: I absolutely agree with you. It is about exceeding a perception and expectation that the client has of you. Only you know what that perception is and you find that out through talking with them, asking questions and getting to know their needs before you do the show.
Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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c.mcbrien New user Chicagoland 52 Posts |
Agreed, Pitts.
Kyle, doesn't that red jacket get hot in Summer?
"Drama and ego are great for the stage, but when I'm off the stage, I drop all that crap..and don't put up with any!"
http://www.chrismcbrien.com |
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