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mikenewman Inner circle Kent Island, Maryland 1114 Posts |
OK, I wasn't sure where to post this, so this is the best that I could find.. If not, I guess this will "Disappear".
So, I know that an OOP Book is just that! Out of print, no longer available (other than from each other). I have always wanted to know how it all works with books? Example (made up book name here): I write a book called "Mike Magic". I guess a publisher says, "We will print that for you" and I sell it to a Publisher, right? Do I sell it outright to them? Or do I get a % of each book sold, kind of like Music CD's? Then do we (Publisher and I) decide that we will print 5,000 copies. Do they come up with that, buy them guessing the possible demand? Or do I tell them I want 5,000 printed. And can I stipulate that they MAY have to print more if the original sells out? And, after the 5,000 are sold. Can they re-print them? And if so, is that a re-release, or just more printed? Do they have to re-do the Year, or can they just reprint the original? A great example (And I know there are a ton out there), is Harry Lorayne's "Best of Friends" volume II. Was there less printed on that one than the other two, hence the high demand and hard to find? Can he (or the publisher) just decide to print that again? Or would it have to be a re-write? And does a re-write require a certain amount of "changes" to qualify for a re-write? I have always wondered this, with so many sought after OOP books, that I have tried to "Google" it, and came up with nothing. I figured with so many magicians on here that have published books, maybe they could give some insight? I won't even touch upon the College Books I have spent thousands on and not be able to sell them back because of "New" editions... I greatly appreciate any info! Trust Me, I am not writing a book. But it has always bothered me not knowing... Thank you in advance! Mike |
David Charvet Special user www.charvetmagic.com 501 Posts |
Every deal between publisher and author is different. In the case of self-publishing, many print a limited number and then do not re-print because of the additional financial outlay required. In the limited world of magic, a run of 500 or 1000 books is considered big, unless it's a very inexpensive book with very wide appeal. To print another 1000 copies only to have them sit around for years waiting to be sold usually doesn't pencil-out.
Now, with the creation of POD (Print On Demand) the game has changed somewhat, as there is not the huge up-front cash outlay that is required with conventional printing. You can print one, or 10,000 copies, as needed. Also, many writers intentionally print small editions to enhance the "collectibility" of the book, and justify a higher selling price. "Destined to become a collectible" much like the Franklin Mint and Danbury Mint do with their "limited edition" model cars, coin sets, etc. etc. Usually, if something is advertised from the beginning as "destined to become a collectible" - it won't be. There are exceptions, of course. The Albo books and Harbin book readily come to mind, although neither was really advertised as a "future collectible" when first sold. Market always determines demand and price in the future. Not every limited-edition book sells for hundreds of dollars. Quality of the content is paramount. |
Clay Shevlin Elite user 497 Posts |
Mike,
You’re really asking about two very different things: (1) when is a book “out of print” and (2) how does the publishing business work. The term “out of print” has a very definite meaning: it simply means that the publisher no longer has copies of the title in stock. So a book can be out of print and still there can be hundreds or thousands of brand new copies available from booksellers. Example: if a publisher printed two million copies of a new Harry Potter book, and the publisher had sold all of its 2M copies to retailers like Barnes and Noble, Costco, etc., then even if there were still 500,000 brand new copies available at these retailers, this printing of the Harry Potter book would be out of print. So just remember: “out of print” always refers to what the publisher has in stock – whether or not new copies remain for sale at your favorite bookseller is absolutely irrelevant to the correct use of the term “out of print.” Now, as David Charvet perceptively suggests, print-on-demand technology has thrown a monkey-wrench into (formerly) easy and clear-cut bibliographical definitions. With print-on-demand technology, the bibliographical concepts of “edition,” “issue” and “state” can become very confusing, in addition to the term “out of print.” Technically, with the publisher’s sell-out of each on-demand print run, the book is out of print! David also mentions “limited editions.” I’ve always been amused by this term, because, technically speaking, at any discrete point in time, every book ever printed in the world since Gutenberg was in fact a limited edition. LOL Regarding the publishing business, as David says, the business arrangements an author has with his/her publisher can vary greatly. There are no hard and fast rules for any of this. But whatever the business arrangements, there are three basic publishing structures: traditional third-party publishing, “vanity press” publishing, and self-publishing. Very generally, the publisher is the one who pays for the printing, binding, distribution, marketing, etc., and takes the financial risk, and this is the case for nearly all traditional third-party publishing and self-publishing. However, the lines get blurred with “vanity press” publishing. Basically, a “vanity press” publisher is one who takes little to no financial risk but puts their publishing imprint on the title page of the book – it’s the author who pays for the costs of printing, binding, etc. These publishers will print just about anything if someone else (usually the author) pays for it. Here’s the trivia question for the day: name a famous magic book that was published by a “vanity press” publisher. |
mikenewman Inner circle Kent Island, Maryland 1114 Posts |
David/Clay,
Thank you! Makes more sense now. Clay, As you say; a book is OOP, meaning the Publisher no longer has copies of the book in stock even if there are a ton of new books out there still waiting to be sold... I guess that's where I am a little confused. Can't a publisher just print more after they sell the original printings to the bookstores? Assuming all the bookstores sold out as well and it becomes a higher demand? Or is there a law that says they have to call it a second edition after the original printing? Everything else makes sense though! And the famous magic book that was published by a "vanity press"?? Hmmmm. I will guess "BoBo's Modern Coin Magic", as a WAG! |
Clay Shevlin Elite user 497 Posts |
Sure, a publisher can print more copies after it has shipped all copies of the initial print run to bookstores. Sometimes if demand is really strong, a publisher will begin another print run even before the first print run is sold out. If it’s a simple reprint, then it would be a second printing of the first edition, but if the type is reset for the book or if the text of the book has changed or edited significantly, then it would be a second edition. When collectors say “first edition,” what they usually really mean is the first printing of the first edition, but a first edition can have multiple printings (sometimes called “impressions”) and still be a first edition.
I’m not aware of any laws (in the U.S. at least) which tell a publisher what to call a reprint. Some publishers will incorrectly designate a second printing as a “second edition,” but I’ve never heard of any fines or lawsuits being filed as a result. If there were such laws, then just about every magic publisher who produces deluxe versions of their books would be guilty of erroneously using the term “deluxe edition,” when in fact it’s not a different edition at all – it’s merely the same edition (and almost always the same printing, too) dressed up in fancier clothing (binding). No, the Bobo book isn't the one I had in mind. |
magicwolverine New user 63 Posts |
The Magic of Robert Harbin
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Clay Shevlin Elite user 497 Posts |
^^^ Nope.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Maybe Oscar Teale's Higher Magic?
Posted: Aug 20, 2010 12:19am The publishing business is simple on one level and complex on another. There are publishing companies who specialize in one or two types of publication. These may or may not have a staff of writers and editors as well as a major distribution network. My father published most of his work through such a company. The copyrights belong to the company as long as the book is being printed. Once it is permanently out of print, then it belongs to the author. That's because of the contractual arrangement he had with the company. Payment for the work is handled on one of two different bases. Either the company buys the rights to the book for a flat fee or they pay a royalty for the book. In the long run, the royalty system is better for the author, because it goes on until the books are sold out and no more are being printed. So, what's the advantage to the author here? Well, it's the distribution and advertising network. If I write a book for this publishing company, they will automatically print a HUGE number of them, far more than ANY magic book you can even begin to think of -- multiple thousands of copies. All I have invested is the copy. They pay for the setup, they pay for the editors and the proofreaders, and they pay for the printing and distribution. I get a royalty check. With a vanity publisher, you submit your copy, and the "publisher" tells you how much it will cost for them to print it for you. One of them, Vantage Press, has an actual distribution network. I think they sell through maybe a dozen bookstores in various parts of the country where television reception is bad. I had a friend who was very proud of his vanity press book. You make very little on a vanity press book. There are also dozens of small, medium and large independent publishers. Most magic publishers, myself included, fall into this category. Magic is a very small market compared to, for example, cookbooks or books on computers and photography. If you want to print a niche market book, print one on bizarre magic. The disadvantage of being a small, independent publisher has been explained by David Charvet and by Clay Shevlin. They have a good handle on the subject. I'll give you an inside view of how this works. I was approached by a major magic dealer in Germany and another in the US to translate a book by Borodin. I had already translated three books by Punx, for which I was paid a whole $500 or so, total. And I had written a biography of Ren Clark, which never got published. I can't publish it myself, because it belongs to Ren's estate, and I can't cut a deal with them. It actually was at the printer's when he died. But that's another story. I was paid by Ted Lesley when I translated Paramiracles. I have no regrets about what I was paid. But this time, I had two goals in mind. 1) I was going to be paid. 2) The book was going to be published -- one way or another. So, I made a deal with the German publisher, because he owned the original book. I translated it, delivered the discs to him and he paid me. Then I learned that the American magic dealer thought that the German magic dealer was going to publish the book and vice-versa. In other words, this book was going to sit in my computer and never see the light of day. So, I made a deal with the author. We would extract one portion of the book, which was a mental coding system, expand it, and sell it as an exclusive in order to fund the rest of the book, which was a good book on its own. In about six months, I raised enough money to afford to have 500 copies of the book printed by one of the major bookmakers (not the same thing as the ones in Las Vegas -- it's a company that makes books). One of the most earth-shaking days I ever had was when the trucking company delivered about 40 cartons of books to my house. It made for some very interesting living room furniture. My distribution network was UPS and me. I sold most of the books through a limited network of dealers within about 9 months. After a year, I sold the rest to a major wholesaler. At that point, the book was officially out of print. I had made a small profit, which I split with Borodin. I also refunded the money that the German magic dealer had paid me for the translation. So things were fine all the way around. It took me a bit longer to sell out all of the copies of the second book in the series. Now, here's the thing about editions, printings and all of that other stuff that Clay has been referring to. If you have many different printings of the same book without making any major changes to the text, it's still the same edition. It may be the first edition, second printing or the first edition, fifteenth printing, but it's still the first edition. The publisher is really not under any obligation to let you know when he has made minor changes to the book. In fact, he really isn't under any obligation to let you know when he has made ANY changes to the book. Sometimes, you have to really scrutinize a book to find the changes that were made, if any. Maureen Christopher has updated Milbourne Christopher's Illustrated History of Magic twice. Each update was in the form of additional material, but no errors in the existing body of the text were changed. Now, POD has made a big change in how books are published. The last big book I edited was Ed Solomon's book -- Presentations for the Storyteller v. 1. Instead of sending this (and a big check) to Sheridan to have a bunch of copies printed, we opted to have it done by Lulu. It was a wise move. Regarding the out of print, out of stock, etc. Out of print means the publisher doesn't have any more of them. Permanently out of print means the publisher doesn't have any more of them and isn't planning to print any more of them. Out of stock means the dealer doesn't have any more of them. Out of luck means it's the Harbin book. One other thing -- yes, I could have more copies of Sheherazade printed. However, the market for that book is very small, I would have to get at least 500 done, and the market just isn't that big. I would be out of pocket for all of them, and, I tell you, cartons of books are lousy furniture.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Clay Shevlin Elite user 497 Posts |
Bill,
HIGHER MAGIC is not the title I had in mind, but it's interesting because I think Adams Press Print was Houdini's imprint, so talk about vanity press! LOL Adams Press Print also published at least three other titles, THE GRIM GAME, ELLIOTT'S LAST LEGACY, and the monograph of Houdini's expose of Margery. In all but Teale's book, I believe Houdini's home address is listed as the publishing address. Clay |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Interesting. I see Higher Magic in almost perfect copies come up for sale quite frequently. I had no idea why the book had stayed at such a low price until I saw a stack of them at H&R a couple of years ago.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
mikenewman Inner circle Kent Island, Maryland 1114 Posts |
Gentleman,
I am extremely greatful for all your insights! Huge help in understanding it all! Thank You!!! Like I mentioned, I am not writing a book but have always wondered how it all works... Very interesting indeed! I finally aquired a copy of the Troy Hooser book "DesTROYers" by Joshua Jay after seaching and searching for it... All the dealers were telling me it is out of print and they couldn't get it. (Great book BTW). And of course I was always wondering about Harry Lorayne's "Best of Friends II" book. Even though it seems a lot on here want it, I am guessing it isn't a big enough demand overall to re-print it. Maybe they're just holding out for our Grandkids to want it... Thanks again guys! Mike |
mrmagician Regular user 124 Posts |
Clay,
How about the Art of Magic by Downs or Greater Magic by Hilliard? Garry H |
Clay Shevlin Elite user 497 Posts |
Garry, Downs self-published the first edition of Art of Magic, and Felsman published the second edition. I guess one could argue that self-publishing a book is an act of vanity, but that doesn't make the publisher a vanity press within the classic definition of the term. Carl Jones published Greater Magic and many other magic books, but he was not a vanity press.
The book I had in mind is My Life of Magic by Howard Thurston, published by Dorrance & Company. |
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