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Dougini
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Regarding the Sponge Balls...

I first learned the Sponge Balls back in 1976, when I went to Worcester, Mass., to visit my stepmothers parents. I visited Steve Dacri's Magic Shop in downtown Worcester. I bought my first spongeballs from Steve. I remember laughing so hard at that trick! I was only 20 then. He taught me the basic trick, and I went back to my grandparents house on Lincoln St. and began practicing.

When I went back in 1977, his shop had closed. I have no idea where he went, or what happpened to him, but the two times I visited his shop, I always went away with my sides hurting from laughing!

Then, I bought a little booklet called Spongeball Manipulation, by Audley Walsh, that had two different routines printed in it. One was called "The Master Routine with the Sponge Balls", by Kozak (Not the Las Vegas Kozak...different guy).

Kozak came to Rumford, Maine in 1977/78 to visit our club, The Maine Magician's Society (independant of IBM and SAM), and the four of us spent the evening going over the Master Routine. I believe this is where I learned the Ten-Count. Kozak said to use a Chinese accent to do it. He said something like, "Chy-NEE do tlick..!", and did the one, two, three, four...etc., palm down, palm up, all the way to ten.

That is all I remember. That book by Walsh was lost in the foreclosure, so I can't reference it any more. I believe Kozak used a purse frame, I'm not sure. I remember he "sawed" the first ball in two with his finger. Then, the Ten-Count. Maybe one of you guys can fill in the rest? Smile

Doug
Noah Riley
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Quote:
On 2010-11-09 10:54, tabman wrote:

You don't need the hardbound book. Get the booklet mentioned above. Just like the man said, its available from Magic Inc and for a paltry $5.95.


Will do. Thanks.

-Noah
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2010-11-09 15:16, tabman wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-11-09 11:18, Bill Palmer wrote:...I bought my copy directly from Frank when he was at the TAOM in 1976. It was reasonably priced then.....


Was it '76? I was thinking it was '75. Time's not flying by as fast as I thought. Smile

Was it at the same one Ron Wilson lectured at??? I've still got all those notes I got those guys to autograph. Garcia was so smooth and polished. I became a life long fan. Ron Wilson too.


That was the 1976 TAOM convention in Houston. I accompanied Ron Wilson from his room to his lecture.

I also got to know Johnny Thompson at that convention. He needed a high quality reel-to-reel tape recorder to play his music for his stage show. I had a Revox. So we took it over to the Music Hall and set it up.

About four years later, a local drug addict broke into my apartment and made off with my Revox, my television set, and a whole bunch of other very valuable material.

Posted: Nov 10, 2010 1:06am
The Audley Walsh book was published by Tannen's and I think it was illustrated by Ed Mishell.

I have the Kozak Master Routine as a separate booklet. It was published in 1973 by Imperial Magic.
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DLarkins
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Quote:
On 2010-11-06 21:39, Bill Palmer wrote:
Regarding the preference towards DVD's -- it's not just a matter of a generational thing. It's a matter of laziness. At the IBM convention in San Diego this past summer, David Roth told about a Darwin Ortiz lecture in which he was referring to a certain book as source material. A teenager in the front row interrupted him and said "I can't learn from books. It has to be a DVD." Darwin ignored him, and the teenager popped off again.

Darwin leaned toward him and asked "Is it the capital letters? Or is it the spaces between the letters?"


Bill, let me start by saying that I respect your opinion, and I largely agree with you about the quality of material available in books as opposed to DVDs. However, when I read this I can't help but wonder if Darwin (or anyone else who doesn't care for DVDs) has considered that there are people who truly cannot learn from books due to some learning disability such as severe dislexia. For these people, video learning of one type or another may be their only viable option. In addition to that, we all have our own particular style of learning. Some benefit more from the written word, others prefer visual, still others may prefer audible instruction.

While it is certainly true that people who learn magic from DVDs have a performance that is readily available to mimick, I do not think that it is a foregone conclusion that all people who learn from that media will copy the performer they see. This is especially true if the learner has a serious interest in magic and knows that this can be a pitfall of video learning.

Personally, I own lots of books and lots of DVDs as well. Each has its merit, and I enjoy the variety and depth of instruction that can be had by combining the sources.

Thanks.
______________________
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Kevin Gardner
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I really like the Sanky's, "Earplugs" instructional DVD good solid instructional material.

On his DVD, "Fooler Doolers" Daryl performs one spongeball effect and one sponge rabbit effect. These are excellent effect, very well thought out for proper flow and audience participation. If you want to learn a good solid working effect for spongeballs or sponge rabbits learn Daryl's.
inaciolino
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What a wonderful thread. There are some good material in the market. "Steve Dacri - Sponge Ball Toolbox" is really good. The late Pat Page has a wonderful video too. Don't forget WGM - Sponge Ball DVD, it's pretty goo. Jay Noblezada and Ben Salinas has some material, they're woth watching. After watching all this material give your own touch on your routine, this is the secret. See you!!!
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2010-11-10 15:50, DLarkins wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-11-06 21:39, Bill Palmer wrote:
Regarding the preference towards DVD's -- it's not just a matter of a generational thing. It's a matter of laziness. At the IBM convention in San Diego this past summer, David Roth told about a Darwin Ortiz lecture in which he was referring to a certain book as source material. A teenager in the front row interrupted him and said "I can't learn from books. It has to be a DVD." Darwin ignored him, and the teenager popped off again.

Darwin leaned toward him and asked "Is it the capital letters? Or is it the spaces between the letters?"


Bill, let me start by saying that I respect your opinion, and I largely agree with you about the quality of material available in books as opposed to DVDs. However, when I read this I can't help but wonder if Darwin (or anyone else who doesn't care for DVDs) has considered that there are people who truly cannot learn from books due to some learning disability such as severe dislexia. For these people, video learning of one type or another may be their only viable option. In addition to that, we all have our own particular style of learning. Some benefit more from the written word, others prefer visual, still others may prefer audible instruction.

While it is certainly true that people who learn magic from DVDs have a performance that is readily available to mimick, I do not think that it is a foregone conclusion that all people who learn from that media will copy the performer they see. This is especially true if the learner has a serious interest in magic and knows that this can be a pitfall of video learning.

Personally, I own lots of books and lots of DVDs as well. Each has its merit, and I enjoy the variety and depth of instruction that can be had by combining the sources.

Thanks.


I come from a family of teachers. We were in the teaching BUSINESS before people worried about dyslexia (SP) and other similar problems. I have NEVER met anyone who couldn't learn from a book, if that person were sufficiently motivated, and if that person had someone to help steer him or her through the material at the appropriate time.

Check out this link: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......m=171&10 . In particular, check out section 2 and section 3.

I suffer from a very rare condition that I call "adult onset dyslexia." About 30 years ago, I had a malignant melanoma on the choroid layer of my right eye. It was treated with radiation and lasers. As a consequence, the vision in my right eye does not always align itself perfectly with the vision in my left eye. I also am missing about 50% of the retina. So my reading speed has slowed from ca. 1500 WPM to a plodding 500 WPM. I have to check and re-check my posts just to make sure that I spell things correctly and do not leave out the occasional word.

Has this stopped me from learning, studying, working or practicing? Not at all. The only thing that has slowed me down is that I have decided that I don't want to work any more than is absolutely necessary, but I still read, learn, etc., and, up until about 3 months ago, I reviewed tricks and DVD's for MUM.

My observations about DVD clones are based upon personal experience, watching the kids that I come into contact with perform various pieces precisely like the junk performers I see on so many DVD's.

Still, there are the occasional performers who can shine through the Mist* of DVD madness.

*I mean this in the German sense of the word.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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Tom Fenton
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Thank you for the last two sentences Bill.
:rotf:
"But there isn't a door"
leaycraft
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I teach students with learning disabilities (almost 10 yrs) and feel qualified to comment on this thread.

Bill Palmer wrote:
I have NEVER met anyone who couldn't learn from a book, if that person were sufficiently motivated, and if that person had someone to help steer him or her through the material at the appropriate time.

I must second this opinion, when there is motivation and someone to help them learn, they can learn. Anyone interested in pursuing this can look at "All Kinds of Minds". This is a program that works with educators, students teachers and families to help them understand how minds work and learn. You learn that EVERYONE can learn academics, presentation and understanding how the brain works makes this possible.

What I clearly observe with my students is success is DIRECTLY related to the effort they expend. I can explain the material, show animations to demonstrate processes, show video presentations of the material, provide them with the notes pre-typed, online and paper. Guess what? When they - the student make no effort, regardless of what I do they do not learn and succeed. The other factor her IMHO is students who make efforts to read are more successful than those who make no effort to read. Reading is critical however slow or laborious or rapid and easy. NO Reading = No learning . I believe this to be true in all facets of life

So what does this have to do with the DVD/Paper thread. Everything ------ Well written instructions are very good at telling you what to do , and how to do it. I have no problem learning from books/notes been doing it successfully for over 57 years (started reading at 3 , because of Mom). What I like to use DVD's for watching how something is done a subtlety that sometimes is not conveyed by words and would take a longer time to figure out than by watching. Note I said longer time not not figure out. I also like to see how other performers work with the same methods yet perform it differently.

To quote an older national program--'READING IS FUNDAMENTAL"
"It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." A. Conan Doyle," The Sign of Four"
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
Well written instructions are very good at telling you what to do , and how to do it. I have no problem learning from books/notes been doing it successfully for over 57 years (started reading at 3 , because of Mom). What I like to use DVD's for watching how something is done a subtlety that sometimes is not conveyed by words and would take a longer time to figure out than by watching.


This is one of the basic problems of magical instruction manuals. Over the years, there have been only a handful of writers of instructions who were able to convey the material with consistent accuracy and efficacy. Harlan Tarbell, Walter B. Gibson, Harry Lorayne and J. Barrows Mussey (AKA Henry Hay) are four of the ones who have been very consistent with presenting their material in an easily understood manner. All of them use(d) a vocabulary that required no more than a third to fifth grade education to comprehend. There are some writers who should be avoided by beginning magic students -- Lewis Ganson comes to mind. Some of his early material is written in the most convoluted manner possible. But his photographs made up for some of his shortcomings as a writer.

Some writers require a bit of special understanding in order to make their messages clear. For example, understanding the Erdnase material requires that the reader pay very close attention to EVERYTHING in both the text and the drawings.

There have also been a number of books that had non-factual material in them. Some of the items in The Art of Magic by T. Nelson Downs were clearly ficticious. Nevertheless, that didn't keep people from trying to learn them.

If you really need to understand the potential negative effects of a learning environment that consists of nothing but DVD's and vs. a learning environment that consists of nothing but books, take a look at the work of Jerry Andrus, Lonnie Chevrie and Stewart James. Then compare that to the material that you see being pushed by the mass-production DVD mills.

Jerry, Lonnie and Stewart basically were self-taught of necessity in environments where there were no other magicians (for the most part). Yet each of them contributed things to the art of magic that most of us use in some form or another. The most obvious example that comes to mind is the Headline Prediction.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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iceblade
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Screw DVDs I say, learning should be made as difficult as possible. Why watch how the move should be properly executed, with all the timing subtleties and body language, when you can read a book and spend your time trying to figure out this for yourself?
Lawrence O
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There are "mirror neurons" and neurology demonstrated that images are creating new neuronal chains to duplicate what we see and teaching more deeply and faster, even if it leaves less room for imagination (which can be addressed in different ways).
It's easy enough to see that societies with more advanced knowledge have more image spreading tools, that image is penetrating every sphere of knowledge...
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2010-11-28 20:00, iceblade wrote:
Screw DVDs I say, learning should be made as difficult as possible. Why watch how the move should be properly executed, with all the timing subtleties and body language, when you can read a book and spend your time trying to figure out this for yourself?


Maybe you have missed some of the point here. Most of the DVD's do not even give the proper execution of the moves nor the timing subtleties or the body language. Why should the tyro become an imitation of a bad example?

Posted: Nov 29, 2010 12:16am
@iceblade:

I think you have missed the whole point of this discussion. I don't have a problem with good DVD's that explain moves well. I DO have a real problem with junk DVD's that are put out by people who don't really do the moves well or that are full of mistakes.

I also have a problem with people who simply REFUSE to look at a book because they are too lazy to try to interpret the written word.

Actually, on second thought, I relish the fact that some of the best material will probably never be made available on DVD or whatever replaces it. This keeps the material within that certain elite group of people who can actually read.

Quote:
On 2010-11-28 21:39, Lawrence O wrote:
There are "mirror neurons" and neurology demonstrated that images are creating new neuronal chains to duplicate what we see and teaching more deeply and faster, even if it leaves less room for imagination (which can be addressed in different ways).
It's easy enough to see that societies with more advanced knowledge have more image spreading tools, that image is penetrating every sphere of knowledge...

That is part of the problem with teaching only through DVD's.

Consider this -- is fast, mass-marketed deep learning of the same junk magic a good thing? In any art, there is a point at which theoretical knowledge, which is not really addressed in rapid learning systems, must be mastered in order for the artist to progress.
"The Swatter"

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iceblade
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Quote:
On 2010-11-29 00:16, Bill Palmer wrote:
@iceblade:

I think you have missed the whole point of this discussion. I don't have a problem with good DVD's that explain moves well. I DO have a real problem with junk DVD's that are put out by people who don't really do the moves well or that are full of mistakes.


I'm not discussing the quality (or lack thereof) of the (majority) of DVDs. I'm discussing the merit of the DVD medium in purely teaching proper technique, timing, and body language in the execution of the move compared to a book. If the advantages of the DVDs concerning proper execution of a move (purely TECHNIQUE) over a book are not obvious, then I rest my case. There are good DVDs and bad DVDs, good books and bad books, this says nothing about the medium itself. It goes without saying that learning from a good book is better that learning from a bad DVD, but then again this is not an argument for either case.

Quote:
I also have a problem with people who simply REFUSE to look at a book because they are too lazy to try to interpret the written word.


I cannot speak for other people. For me, its not a matter of laziness, its a matter of efficiency. Let me make this clear, as far as TECHNIQUE is concerned, from best to worst 1) Learning from a good magician in person, 2) watching a good magician teaching this move on a DVD, 3) Learning from a good book.

Quote:
Actually, on second thought, I relish the fact that some of the best material will probably never be made available on DVD or whatever replaces it. This keeps the material within that certain elite group of people who can actually read.


I'd rather think the elite group as magicians who can do good magic, and no I don't see any correlation with a preferred medium for learning magic. Let me be clear. I don't have a problem with books, I really like them. I have many magic books (many more than DVDs). I will try to summarize: Books are very good for someone already familiar with a specific field of magic (i.e NOT good for beginners). Books are EXCELLENT when you want to learn magic theory (e.g Books of Wonder, Strong Magic, Leading with your Head, Five points in magic, Secret art of Magic etc).
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I was with you up until your summary. When you make a statement like "Books are very good for someone already familiar with a specific field of magic (i.e. NOT good for beginners)," then you set yourself up as a target for people who will say, "So all of the material by Henry Hay, such as The Amateur Magician's Handbook, the Bill Tarr books and the entry level books by Walter B. Gibson are not as good as the sponge ball DVD's from Penguin and Magic Makers?"

Clearly, you have not read the entire thread, nor have you kept an open mind about this thing.

This thread has been more about the BEST sources for material on sponge balls than it has about anything else. It started with what I considered a false assumption on the part of the original poster, which was that the best place to start was a DVD. Clearly, I don't believe that to be the case.

I don't believe there is a "best" DVD on sponge ball magic, because that would mean that there is a good one. Smile The comparative of "bad" is not bad, tolerable, best.

Read my posts again in particular and tell me where I have erred.
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iceblade
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Quote:
On 2010-11-29 12:59, Bill Palmer wrote:
I was with you up until your summary. When you make a statement like "Books are very good for someone already familiar with a specific field of magic (i.e. NOT good for beginners)," then you set yourself up as a target for people who will say, "So all of the material by Henry Hay, such as The Amateur Magician's Handbook, the Bill Tarr books and the entry level books by Walter B. Gibson are not as good as the sponge ball DVD's from Penguin and Magic Makers?"


The fact that you support that probably there is not on the market a good DVD for sponge ball magic does not refute my argument. Nor does comparing good books to less than mediocre DVDs. Let me state it more clearly with an example. Allow me to borrow one from coin magic (albeit getting off topic) with which I am most familiar. In my opinion, for a beginner in coin magic, the Michael Ammar, David Roth and David Stone DVDs (add to that the Rubinstein Encyclopedia if you want a VERY good reference) are FAR MORE VALUABLE than reading Bobo's Modern Coin Magic. Is it a bad book? No, it's a very good book. Should one read it AFTER he is thoroughly familiar with a foundation in coin magic taught by people who obviously know what they are doing? Hell yeah.

Quote:
On 2010-11-29 12:59, Bill Palmer wrote:
This thread has been more about the BEST sources for material on sponge balls than it has about anything else. It started with what I considered a false assumption on the part of the original poster, which was that the best place to start was a DVD. Clearly, I don't believe that to be the case.
I don't believe there is a "best" DVD on sponge ball magic, because that would mean that there is a good one. Smile The comparative of "bad" is not bad, tolerable, best.


Back on topic, regarding sponge ball material, Jay Sankey - Earplugs, Patrick Page DVD, WGM - Sponge Balls and Scott Strange-Oddballs are all very good material regarding sponge balls. Using just these you can learn proper technique and very good routines using sponge balls. Yes this is best place to start, particularly if you are a beginner in sleight-of-hand in general. Give a book to a beginner, let him learn just from that and then show me his false transfers. Yes you guessed it, they won't be very good. Because there are nuances in technique that ARE NOT described in books.
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So, you still haven't read all my posts, have you?
"The Swatter"

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iceblade
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Quote:
On 2010-11-06 21:39, Bill Palmer wrote:
Regarding the preference towards DVD's -- it's not just a matter of a generational thing. It's a matter of laziness. At the IBM convention in San Diego this past summer, David Roth told about a Darwin Ortiz lecture in which he was referring to a certain book as source material. A teenager in the front row interrupted him and said "I can't learn from books. It has to be a DVD." Darwin ignored him, and the teenager popped off again.

Darwin leaned toward him and asked "Is it the capital letters? Or is it the spaces between the letters?"

This is one reason I'm really disappointed that Erdnase is now available on DVD's. This material is so important that people who want to learn it should really be required to get it out of the book. If you aren't willing to put forth the effort to interpret it, then you shouldn't be doing it.

Of course, it IS more than 100 years old, so I suppose it would be considered to be dated.


As you see, I actually HAVE read your posts so, to respond to this, here is my initial response:

Quote:
Screw DVDs I say, learning should be made as difficult as possible. Why watch how the move should be properly executed, with all the timing subtleties and body language, when you can read a book and spend your time trying to figure out this for yourself?
Bill Palmer
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I never said, except tongue in cheek, that learning should be made as difficult as possible.

Can you tell me the name of the fellow who learned to read by teaching himself magic from reading the Tarbell books? If you can't, you didn't read ALL of what I posted. You probably skipped the link.

BTW, you have been using the same kind of spin tactics that bad politicians use when they want to try to prove a point by changing the subject, as you did, when you switched over to coin DVD's. I agree that the Bobo book is not the best place for a beginner to learn to do coin magic. But I won't necessarily agree with your choice of DVD's. Ammar, yes, Roth, yes. But that's about as far as I will go.

Shigeo Futagawa's book Introduction to Coin Magic is, on the other hand, a much better starting point than Bobo.

As far as learning body language from a DVD, I don't think that's what the beginner will get out of one. That still requires interpretation, and preferrably, live instruction.

Regarding The Sponge Book and Frank Garcia's book on sponges that Gene Gordon published, I don't see anything that has replaced them in DVD's. Patrick Page's DVD is a good starting point. I had forgotten all about that one. But there is one simple thing that anyone who can read at a third grade level can pick up out of Frank's book that I haven't seen on a DVD that places the whole process of a false transfer within the interpretive means of a complete beginner. He does it in less than a page, and he does it well.

BTW, I would place a whole lot more value upon your posts if I had an idea of who you are and/or your experience.

As it stands, you have posted neither, so I place very little import upon them at all.

Posted: Nov 30, 2010 12:33pm
I've been thinking this whole thread over, and I think that there are a few things that I should clarify.

1) I am not totally against the use of DVD's to teach people moves. If you read the entire thread, this would become evident.
2) I am against the plethora of junk DVD's that various on-line magic companies are issuing, some of which have either mediocre or totally wrong information. No names. They have already been mentioned.
3) Regarding the situation with Darwin Ortiz -- I'm completely behind him for two reasons. His lectures are NOT for beginners. If there is a teenager in one of Darwin's lectures, he should be up to snuff on the kind of material Darwin teaches. If he repeatedly interrupts with "I can't learn from books, it's got to be DVD's," then he deserves what Darwin hands him.
4) The comment about Erdnase on DVD's was half in jest, but only half. Erdnase is not beginner material. It's the kind of thing that IMHO should be approached with reverence, from the source.

In all cases, a good teacher really helps the learning process immensely.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Angio333
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[quote]On 2010-11-04 22:55, Frank Starsini wrote:
Quote:
Which sucks.

The Nozebleeda DVD is so bad on so many levels it needed it's own reply above. And penquin had the nerve to call it "the last word on spongeballs". very irresponsible.

p.s. Patrick Page's DVD on the TT is also great. Great advice and ideas from a long time Pro. I'd rather get those DVDs from Pat Page with 50 years experience than DVDs from kid in sunglasses any day. Makes good sense.


why do you think it was so bad? As a beginner, I found that Noblezada's DVD to be very helpful. His instructions and camera angles were great.
- C
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