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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Polly wants a cracker... » » Dove loops (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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dahih beik
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palestine
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What is the best thread used for dove loops? I use monofilm or fishing line, but lately I have discovered FireLine Braided Bead Thread from BeadSmith. It looks very interesting, strong and fine. Has anybody tried it? Your answer would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
MikeHMagic
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I use wire that is sold for stringing beads. It's thin, black & able to hold a shape.
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Bill Hegbli
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This is a good wire to use with your dove bags, from Daytona Magic.

Click here to view attached image.
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Dave Scribner
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First of all, if you are going to use Andy Amyx's wire noted above, why not order it directly from Andy? He is a member here.

The subject of monofilament versus wire has been discussed here several times. Using Fireline braided line is overkill. Remember you are connected to a dove. All you need is normal 4 or 6lb at most test monofilament line.

The decision to use monofilament or wire is a personal choice and many times comes down to how you want to attach your loops to your jacket. Wire can be bent or special holders can be used whereas monofilament must be held in place with some type of holder.

Wire doesn't have to be treated for color but monofilament must be shaded to reduce light reflection.

By the way, if you use wire there are several options besides Andy Amyx's as listed about. You can use floral wire, or wire available in most hardware stores or jewerlry stringing wire with a guage of 20.
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dahih beik
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palestine
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Hi Mr. Dave, why do say that it is over kill? The truth is that I didn't decide on changing my fishing line to this new thread but I find it very strong, and it easily assumes any shape you give them. They are almost invisible.
Lavey
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I use Andy's wire for a loop and fix them with a fishing line on the dove bag. I use Dan Sperry's Loop Holders to hold everything on place.
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Dave Scribner
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Dahih beik, by over kill I meant that fireline is very strong but not necessary for dove loops. Normal monofilament line is fine at only a 4-6 lb test capacity. You don't need braided or super strong line.

Lavey, I too use wire with a line to the dove bag. I've used both Dan's holders and P&A silks holders for this hookup.
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dahih beik
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palestine
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Dave , for me the fire line was a discovery not for its strength only buy for its invisibility and easy shaping quality , I say discovery because you don t imagine how difficult for me to find these stuff in bethlehem palestine that's were I live I m alwaye interested in trying everything so ill by andye wire and take a look thanks
Bill Hegbli
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There are different times you may want to use different type of wire or nylon. Shamada uses wire loops but they are totally hidden from view. See his Dove video for the technique. Otherwise 10 pound clear nylon is good for exposed loops.

Channing Pollack/James Dimmare use thin music wire with gun dye for stiffer wire that you may want grab quickly.

There is really no one solution for all the different methods. I spent 5 years researching this, this was before videos and the internet. I spent over $500 in materials and information just looking for the proper methods.

I found that floral wire will break after repeated use and you will never know when that will happen. Music wire and fishing line will not, and that is why I perfer these over may other wires. Even though floral wire acts just like fishing line when it has weight on it, I just do not want the worry of it breaking at the wrong time.
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Regan
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I like 6-8# monofiliment best overall, but I found some fishing leader made of braided wire that I am experimenting with. I really like it so far. I believe it may be similar to what Bill is calling "music" wire.

Bill, are you meaning wire that is used for guitar or piano strings?

This fishing leader wire I am referring to is braided, or wound. It is much lighter than any wound guitar or piano string I have seen. I like the fact that it can be twisted in such a way to form a loop that kind of curls in one direction. One of my Dove videos talks about this 'curling'. I'm not for sure, but I belive it may be Greg Frewin. It seems to be very, very strong, and I believe it will hold up as well or better than anything else, as far as breaking goes. The only type I could find had a dull, silvery-like finish. I will have to color it somehow if I do decide to use it in shows.

You may want to look into this type of wire, or not. As Dave, Bill, and others have shown, their are a lot of choices and a lot of it boils down to situations and personal preferences.

Regan
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Bill Hegbli
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It also boils down to being safe for the bird.

Yes, I am speaking of Piano wire, it is very strong and does not bend easily. That is what comes on Norm Nielsen Dove Bags. Music Wire can be obtained to a very thin thickness, like a hair. If you do not want to purchase a whole roll of piano wire, then the thinest guitar wire may work and you can buy them one at time. Some use the loop on the guitar wire as release for the Channing Pollack doube dove production. Using it as a needle and attached to the clothing for the automatic releas. Some perfer the the one hand release opening type of bags, but there is a very slight difference in the production using the needle method over the one hand release.

Dye wire by using gun black sold at most all gun stores. It is a chemical which changes the wire to black. It is chemical and the wire gets worm during the very quick process. Wipe and wash the wire afterwords, tape the ends to not harm the bird, as usually you will only be able to twist the wire ends, not knot them.
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Dave Scribner
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Bill is right that there is no one particular answer to this question. However, I do believe that 10lb test monofilament is way too heavy for the job. It's a dove and very light. a 6lb test line should be just fine.

There are times though that wire is more suitable. It all depends on the effect and how much pressure will be exerted on the loop. Wire guage should be about 20 guage as I've mentioned before. You really want the wire to bend or at least be somewhat flexible during the production.

I've used floral wire in the past and again agree with Bill. It does have a tendency to break over time. It is green in color but turns black when held over a flame. Just wipe it down after burning. I consider myself somewhat anal in this regard. If I've been rehearsing prior to a show, I change the loop before the gig so it's fresh and has no chance of breaking. I change the loops after 5 performances regardless. I don't need any surprises during a show.
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Bill Hegbli
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I tried the floral wire and wore a green tux to match. That is how I solved the color thing.

I did find black wire at the craft store and heavy black wire at the hardware store.

The stiff music wire is more for the direct steal like Johnny Thompson uses.

I would use a good mix to keep the steals all different in handling. Worked for me.
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Regan
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Bill, great tip on the gun black. I used to have some that was a blackish-blueish dye, but it was called "Gun Blue". Is that the same as "Gun Black"? Or is it available in different colors?

I play guitar, so I have access to plenty of smalled-guaged strings. I don't thonk I would like to use it for loops. It is tough, but it can kink and it is fairly stiff. I thnk it would be excellent for pinning the hinged, auto-release type dove bags. The fishing leader wire I found was wound, kind of like the larger-gauged guitar strings, but it is very small and much more flexible.
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Bill Hegbli
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Regan, not being a gun person, I have not the knowledge and did not go to a gun shop yet to check it out. I do know that it was known as "Gun Blue", but when I watched the DVD of of James Dimmare he called it "Gun Black" so I was using his terminology. To me the guns I seen are black, and in the army my rifle metal parts were actually gray color. So maybe there is several colors, I do not know positively though. Or, it could be that the chemical reaction is such a dark blue that it looks black. I really do not know at this point. It can be easily answered by visiting a guy shop.

Also, a stated it is more for the "Direct Steal" not the steals of balling up the silk moves. It is stiff for a reason, as it stays were it is suppose to. This line is very short compared to other methods.
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Michael J. Douglas
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There may be a difference between the chemicals used in gun blue and gun black kits, but treating the wire for loops is called "bluing" from what I know. It's been awhile since I watched the Dimmare DVD, so I wouldn't want to comment on it. Maybe he'll pop in here to say.

A quick search turned up a Wiki article that said: "Some prefer to call thin coatings of black oxide by the name gun bluing, and to call heavier coatings by the name black oxide, but they are both the same chemical conversion process for providing true gun bluing."

Maybe this has something to do with the name difference, but I don't know. The article also states that bluing only works on steel or stainless steel and not on non-ferrous material. Aluminum, it states, will develop an "uneven staining," so that may actually work in your favor as more of a camouflaged effect.
Michael J.
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Bill Hegbli
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The only thing missing from the Dimmare video is the size wire he was using and the brand name. He said he found it at an ordinary hardware store, but I never have. When they took a close up of the package, it was so blurred I could not read the size or brand, and James did not mention it. It is super video on Channing Pollack's dove steal, which I had this information when I spent over $500 looking for the correct methods for dove production back in the 1980's.
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Michael J. Douglas
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Yeah, one of the DVDs also has Billy McComb explaining his Gypsy Thread handling. He said he had found the best thread and had a bag of it, but he never gave the name. After freeze-framing, I finally made out part of the name, and then spent a long time searching online. Turns out, the stuff was no longer made! Ugh!
Michael J.
�Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.� --from Shakespeare�s �As You Like It�
Dave Scribner
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Once again, this all comes down to personal preferrence. Some like wire, some like monofilament some like both. Which wire is up to the individual. From my experience, Andy's wire or that purchased from a hardware store are perfect for loops. For use with invisible harnesses however, monofilamet is the way to go.

The use of wire for closing a harness is fine but think of this. You have a stiff piece of piano or guitar wire threaded through the bag. The production is made and that wire drops unseen under the coat where it "can" pierce your clothing or stick you like a pin. The same method of closure can be accomplished using monofilament and a needle to thread it into the bag. Once produced, the monofilament just lays unseen and without any danger to anything.

Just my thoughts here. In dove magic, there really isn't always a black and white answer to what is best.
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Regan
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Thanks guys for clearing up the gun blue-black thing. I suspect it is the same thing, but I'll check further one of these days. I think I still have some of my old gun blue dye somewhere around here. If I can locate it I may test it out and see what I can with some of my wire. I have several types, but I forget what they are made from. I have plenty to do some testing with though. I'm glad Bill reminded me about this stuff!
Mister Mystery
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