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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » I just realized, there is no "Magic secret".... (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Pakar Ilusi
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Quote:
On 2010-09-25 12:21, mandarin wrote:
If you have no technique... you have no magic. You have someone trying to "entertain" who likely can't sing, can't dance, and is not particularly funny. The one thing they should be able to do, you likely paid for them to do, is superb magic. As I said, a lesser form of entertainment. Sorry to disagree...


Smile

I agree with you. Good Technique is very important in Magic. It's what makes it work. That's my whole point in this thread.

Are these techniques secret? Nope, you can learn them at any Magic Shop.

Are they important, of course.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Mr. Mystoffelees
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OK, Pakar, I just went down a wrong corridor... am with you now. Thanks! Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Pakar Ilusi
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You're welcome Jim! Smile
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Alan Wheeler
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The missing causal link (Giobbi in Genii) between the initial condition and final condition (Ascanio) comprise the magic effect. The missing causal link is missing because it is a secret technique or method.

Keeping that causal link missing maintains the "no way!" experience (Ortiz) or the dilemma (Haydn).

Worthy secrets (beyond the TT and the IT) include how presentation and showmanship are an integral part of the technique and method, not just something added to turn supposedly boring magic into something entertaining, not just something added to aid the willing suspension of disbelief.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
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Pakar Ilusi
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On 2010-10-05 20:37, Alan Wheeler wrote:
The missing causal link (Giobbi in Genii) between the initial condition and final condition (Ascanio) comprise the magic effect. The missing causal link is missing because it is a secret technique or method.

Keeping that causal link missing maintains the "no way!" experience (Ortiz) or the dilemma (Haydn).

Worthy secrets (beyond the TT and the IT) include how presentation and showmanship are an integral part of the technique and method, not just something added to turn supposedly boring magic into something entertaining, not just something added to aid the willing suspension of disbelief.


Sure, great definition of what some feel constitutes a "secret" in Magic. My point however is this, all of this knowledge can be bought in the public domain(or gotten for free even) by anybody who wants it. It really isn't a secret. Or else it would not be for everyone to have so long as they can pay for it (such as real secrets are e.g. National Military Top Secrets Documents).

Two separate issues.

But thanks, good definition.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Alan Wheeler
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I was suggesting that the use of presentation (1) to hide the methods and (2) to build up the effect might constitute one of those little known and practiced "real secrets" of magic. I know that some--such as Max Maven--have suggested that theater and showmanship and artistry are the "real secrets," and I wanted to note that these "real secrets" can be applied directly to a traditional or purist definition of magic.

But you have no argument from me that when the secrets are exposed, new approaches are required.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
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Pakar Ilusi
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On 2010-10-10 15:55, Alan Wheeler wrote:
I was suggesting that the use of presentation (1) to hide the methods and (2) to build up the effect might constitute one of those little known and practiced "real secrets" of magic. I know that some--such as Max Maven--have suggested that theater and showmanship and artistry are the "real secrets," and I wanted to note that these "real secrets" can be applied directly to a traditional or purist definition of magic.

But you have no argument from me that when the secrets are exposed, new approaches are required.


I agree with you on that. Thanks for explaining.

Smile
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Pablo Leal
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Quote:
On 2010-10-10 15:55, Alan Wheeler wrote:
I was suggesting that the use of presentation (1) to hide the methods and (2) to build up the effect might constitute one of those little known and practiced "real secrets" of magic. I know that some--such as Max Maven--have suggested that theater and showmanship and artistry are the "real secrets," and I wanted to note that these "real secrets" can be applied directly to a traditional or purist definition of magic.

I agree and I would like to go a little deeper on yout thoughts. When Pakar talks about "secrets" I believe he means "technical" or "mecanical" secrets. Those you can buy anywhere. But there're so much more. Psycology, perception, verbal and non verbal comunication, etc. Try this, watch Juan Tamariz perform and ask yourself if you can buy HIS secrets...
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here2009
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Depends how you define "magic secret." By the OP's definition, it seems that he is trying to say that a "secret" is something that either no one or few people know about, and not just anyone can buy it. Of course, according to this, the items you see at penguin and other magic sites are NOT "secrets." However, what about the secrets that are kept in a small circle of magicians? Do you not believe it's possible to buy those too? Couldn't a rich man pay $1 million and buy any secret? If yes, then that's not really a secret, is it? If no, then perhaps there are such things as secrets. Or maybe not... How many people need to know about a secret for it to not be secret anymore, and how easy does the access need to be? Surely, not anyone can pay $1 million for a secret, but by that same logic, not anyone can pay $1000, $100, or even $10 to find a secret. You see how things become much more complicated when you start to define?
Jonathan Townsend
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Magic can be a gift we give audiences. Wrapped in fine chalcedony and mislabeled as mystery we ask them to unwrap our presents of surprise and delight or perhaps a few moments of wonder. The more attentive may appreciate the reminder that all we know ultimately depends on what we believe - a most profound knowledge some of us have learned to forget.

So what's the secret? I've forgotten already - as what I get is just the sense of accomplishment one might find when a thoughtful gift is received and appreciated - perhaps even when its given anonymously.
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Jack Baines
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Quote:
I agree and I would like to go a little deeper on yout thoughts. When Pakar talks about "secrets" I believe he means "technical" or "mecanical" secrets. Those you can buy anywhere. But there're so much more. Psycology, perception, verbal and non verbal comunication, etc. Try this, watch Juan Tamariz perform and ask yourself if you can buy HIS secrets...


I think the second secret you talk about here is the performance that Parkar is talking about.

I tend to agree with Parkar, there are no secrets, they can all (nearly all) be bought, or if you have a mind to, worked out. Instead of secrets there is skill, both in the technical method, and in performance. I would argue that the second, whatever it is you do, is far more important. Because it doesn't matter what you do, or how good you are at it, if you job is to entertain and you cant engage an audience, if you cant instil resonance, then ultimately how good you are at the subject of that performance doesn't matter. But if you are a great performer, then the audience will still leave with something, they will forgive, even forget the poor technical skill. For example, does anyone remember Tommy Cooper as 'that rubbish magician', of course not, because being a rubbish magician was part of his hilarious performance.
Pakar Ilusi
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You get it Jack. Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Jack Baines
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"No trick will be anything more than a trick unless it is well presented." -

Fischer, O. (1936) ILLUSTRATED MAGIC Stuttgart: The Macmillan Company.


I know this thread is old, but I came across this quote in this magic book I'm reading and thought I of this discussion.
Jonathan Townsend
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Since when are the first steps in basic rhetorical presentation not a secret to most in this craft?

Misdirection: you know you are misdirected if you are fussing over base but supposedly clever ways to get a trick done while ignorant of the means used to engage an audience so they'd want you to show them the trick.

Peter Pan starts to grow up when he asks Tinkerbell if she has a mother and a father.
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Pakar Ilusi
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Well, since this is a searchable forum, none of these things we've spoken about are secret as well. Not anymore at least. Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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