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goatears Veteran user 400 Posts |
I am a devote Christian and have grown up my whole life playng family games with playing cards. I have a great respect of card magic but everytime that I pull out a deck of cards I get questions about face cards and their connection to tarot cards as well as gambling. In the past I have used Disney themed playing cards which helps but my question is how my fellow christian magicians have dealt with cards magic in their professional shows.
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Playing cards pre date Tarot cards by nearly a century. Neither standard playing cards nor the Tarot were used in any form of divination until the 18th century. There is nothing occult or satanic in the creation or original symbology of the tarot. They are all drawn from archetypes common in the middle ages.
While used for gambling at that time period all games were. So if someone decry's there use because of their association with gambling they will have to forgo playing checkers, tic tac toe, chess, and backgammon as they too were all games whose outcome were wagered on in the past. Playing cards are simply pieces of paper. They only possess whatever power one gives them.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Dan Bernier Inner circle Canada 2298 Posts |
Very true Payne. However, that may not always be enough to convince some that the cards themselves are innocent. I believe that scripture gives the best answer to this question.
(Romans 14:13-23) "Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin." Dan
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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Kif Anderson FCM forum Staff 1961 - 2012 386 Posts |
I have found that playing cards are great for gospel magic in certain venues...not so much in others. Like with any program, you need to see what your host would like. Certainly the Creative Magic Flash Cards could be used. We, in the act Oz & Wilde, do a number of card effects...but have changed the cards from playing cards to Bible Character Cards, Bible Verse Cards, etc. to fit the routine and make the performance more acceptable.
However, most people who have problems with playing cards...are going to have as much if not more issues with magic shows in general. You can have Robert Hill's "Should a Christian be Doing Magic?" essay memorized...but it may do you little good if they have very strong feelings.
We are not cisterns made for hoarding, we are channels made for sharing. - Billy Graham
<BR> <BR>Sharing the gospel with Comedy & Illusion www.ozandwilde.com |
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marklock Regular user 151 Posts |
Okay ... this may have been something I did during my rebellious years ... but I'll share it.
I was doing a show for a church and they asked me not to use playing cards. I asked if I could make things disappear? ... they said yes. Could I make objects vanish?.. they said yes. I asked if I could "give life" to an inanimate object like a handkerchief? ... they said yes. I asked if I could read minds, even attempt to control the minds of others? ... Once again they said yes. So I asked ... what is wrong with using playing cards in my act? They said they were used in gambling and other unseemly practices. I asked if other cards could be used instead? ... they said yes. So I showed them a Tarot deck and asked if they were acceptable... they said YES! Legalism at its finest! |
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ezequiel New user Portugal 10 Posts |
In Portugal the problem is the some.
Just because of that I've made "special" cards with our ministry logo in the back, and blank in front. That's what I use inside the churches, if my work is outside them so I use a normal "Svengali" deck. I prefer not to be worry about that inside the church, once because not only what you all already said, but also people here are very superstitious, and use too much legalisms inside christian churches. The some people who doesn't let me use playing cards inside the church, don't mind if I use them in a outside evangelistic work... I can tell you that once a very good friend of mine, and pastor, were invited to make a special gospel work in a Sunday school. He is a magician and a ventriloquist, and after he used is puppet in the show we was invited to never come back again to that church because he was using a possessed toy... I also have my problems with this ministry, but I prefer to look forward and see that I'm doing this work for God. Even so I try not to scandalize anyone. |
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REV BILL Special user Glen Burnie Maryland 795 Posts |
Steve Varro can supply you with Gospel symbol cards and a Svengali deck to match.
Specializing in Family Entertainment,Gospel,Comedy and Educational programs for over 30 years.(Order of Merlin)
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts |
It's best to just ask the church or Christian audience up front if it would be ok. I had only once instance out west where it was prohibited because the show was for an Indian reservation where the people had really big problems with drinking and gambling. The missionaries to the reservation didn't want me performing with playing cards that could also be used for poker. I ended up using some UNO cards for the "hummer card" effect. Other than that...I did other types of magic.
Website: www.MattAdamsMinistries.com
Instagram: @mattadamsministries Facebook: www.facebook.com/mattadamsministries |
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jamiedoyle Special user Lafayette, IN 619 Posts |
I've actually used UNO cards for a lot of effects in my programs.
They are innocent enough to use and you can do a lot of stuff with them. Not to mention the "one-way" backs on them. Cheers, Jamie |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Several card games like Bridge and Draw Poker have been legally established in court as NOT GAMBLING, but tests of skill.
From my expereince many churchs are against things "for idle hands" regarless of their forms. My grandfather was raised that nothing was alowed on Sunday as diversion except reading the Bible and talking solitary walks for contemplation. It is the concept of a "game" that was considered wrong. By the way, there is evidence that the images on common playing cards derive from actual royal families in the 8th Century based on letters of Alcuin of York. At least six of Shakespear's plays are also based on these notes. Thus, it is possible to tell "real stories" about the face cards, what they hold, how they face, etc. that is historically valid. The Ace of Spades traditonally has a special design because it was taxed -- sold separately from a deck, which led to the inclusion of a Joker as a substitute -- laughing at authority.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-08 10:53, funsway wrote: Interesting theories. Not supported by any evidence, but interesting none the less. The earliest reference to playing cards in Europe is from 1377 so it is doubtful that Alcuin of York, or anyone else from the 8th century had any input into the designing or naming of the Court Cards. The Court cards were un-named until the late 16th century and only two of them (the King of Hearts and the Jack of Spades) hold names of nobility from the 8th century. " I would be interested in your evidence that the Ace of Spades was ever sold separately. While it is true that playing cards were taxed heavily and often the ace of spades bore the tax stamp. I have never heard of it being sold apart from the pack. Also since the Joker was unheard of in the deck until the middle of the 19th century. It being used first in the game of Euchre. I find this theory implausible since the tax on cards was in place a good century before the introduction of the joker. But if you have a source supporting this idea I'd be very interested to know of it.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
A lot of it was verbal stories from magacians when I was a teen -- an oldster gave me typed page of the family descriptions that I even used in a speech presentation in college, without objection. Are they true? Can't really jusge, but it makes sense that the card designs were just not invented.
There are many works available of Alcuin of York and his impact on English history and Shakespeare -- just Google and follow internal references. We owe him our rules of grammar, uniform font, management by objectives, and inclusion of the Nicene Creed in Catholic Mass -- so why not valid notes of Royal families of the period? It was also common for commoners to poke fun at nobles in subtle ways -- parody skits, Trevere songs -- and Shakespeare often change the lines of a play to fit nobles in the audience. Theory maybe -- but it will serve until a better one comes along
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Chiming in here from an Eastern Orthodox Christian perspective.
The Church does not see playing cards as intrinsically evil. They are inanimate objects. What WE do with them however is another story altogether. If for instance we use cards to cheat people out of money, that breaks the Commandment against stealing. If we use playing cards in a manner in which we convince the audience that what we do is accomplished by supernatural means, then that is forbidden. So, when I perform for Orthodox Churches, I do a secular show that I make certain meets the following criteria: (N.B. This holds true for ANY branch of the art of magic) 1. Any effect with a gambling theme I present as something that happened to ME. I will also perform, but not expose - short cons such as the Three Shell Game, Endless Chain, and Three Card Monte as something that happened to ME. There is no "gambling" aspect and the effects are more illustrative if you will. 2. In ANY show, I invite people to relax and enjoy the ART of magic as entertainment. For Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches as well as denominational churches along the spectrum of Protestantism, I assure them magic is accomplished by NATURAL means, that is, through the gifts from God such as talent, the amazing workings of His natural laws, etc. 3. Partly due to performing style as well I do not perform sucker effects. I find these distasteful. I have stated in a few other posts that your best strategy is to check with the clergy of the particular church where you are performing. I will do that even in the Roman Catholic Church where I was raised and in the Eastern Orthodox Church to which I converted. Each priest may have a different level of comfort concerning magic and so I will consult with him BEFORE taking the show. Again, my show is not gospel magic, but, it IS aimed at providing audiences with a form of escape, to mystify them, and to entertain them. As to playing games with cards, my experience as an Eastern Orthodox Christian is that playing games such as Poker or Blackjack, or indeed any card game in which there are stakes is fine PROVIDED the stakes are poker chips that do NOT represent real money. In other words, the games are played as FUN, not for real stakes - even pennies. I do not use Tarot in ANY church shows - not even gigs for Unitarian Universalists who are pretty much open to anything - but I WILL use them in secular venues, but, even there, my audiences are told that everything is done by natural means. I even quip with this corny line which gets nice laughs and relaxes audiences: "Think of it this way, if I could REALLY do these things with cards that you are about to see and had REAL powers, do you REALLY think that that I would be messing around with card tricks?? No way! I would just snap my fingers and have all the money I would ever need and retire to Tahiti!" Yes, stupid line but it does serve very well to convey a very important point. अहिंसा Vlad PS: The Sanskrit you see above is the word "ahimsa". It means "do no harm." |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-09 07:53, funsway wrote: Not even theory. Theory has evidence to back it up. This is baseless speculation, hypothesis at best. Since European playing cards are Italian in origin it is highly doubtful that Alcuin of York, an Englishman had anything to do with the creation of the Court Cards, especially since he was long dead before they made their first appearance. The cards we use today are based on the French rouen Pack which were designed by Pierre Marechal in the 16th century. You can read about their development here http://www.wopc.co.uk/cards/courts.html . You will note that Alcuin of York's name is absent from this history. Alcuin of York may have been an influence for Sakespeare, an important figure in mathematics and calligraphy. He was however in no way responsible for the development of playing cards.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Dougini Inner circle The Beautiful State Of Maine 7130 Posts |
Members, I must say this: Vlad has hit it right on the money! I cannot argue with a thing he has posted! I gotta hand it to you, Vlad, my friend! You have a wisdom far beyond anything I can claim! I could not have said it better in my lifetime!
I do not gamble. Never have. I do not judge those who do. I have "belonged" to so many churches and denominations, including The Jehova's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists, and even tried the Mormons for a while. I was born a Catholic. I even went to see a Jewish Rabbi, who actually steered me in the right direction! I am not Jewish by blood. That I cannot change. I ended up being non-religious, but a Bible believer. One thing I have found. Religious people mean well. They think that by "correcting" you, and making you repent of your "ways", they have done a good deed. I was given the "lecture" once on the use of standard "Playing Cards", by a stauch Baptist, who claimed it was "The Devil's Tools". Okie dokie. Riiigghht! Uh huh...(backing away...). The Eastern Orthodox Christian perspective, is one I have to admit, I can fully relate to. My sister, who is a sister in The Nuns Of New Skete, in Cambrige New York has helped me more than any one. They are Eastern Orthodox Christians. Russian Orthodox, actually. However, Gospel Dan said it. Romans 14:13-23. I do not want to do anything, that might make a new Christian "stumble". "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of...anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not...to do anything...that will cause your brother to fall." We are judged by our INTENT. I will avoid using playing cards, if a new Christian has been ignorantly made to believe it is "of the devil". Why push it? There is so much else I can use to entertain! If using a Simplex Dye Tube and a black silk to white silk color-change can get a message across, why not? I'm not very good with cards, but I can do the color-changing silk pretty good! I do like card tricks though. The few I know how to do, have been proven winners! But, as Vlad said, asking permission first, might be the better choice! Doug |
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Wes Holly Special user Cincinnati, OH, USA 644 Posts |
This is one of those subjects where it doesn't matter what we (the performer) think or how we can justify what we do. The decision has already been made by the client. There is little to be gained in debating with them to change their decision.
In most instances it is best to refer to rule #1 - the customer is always right. wes holly |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Well Payne, Alcuin established the rules under which the Holy Roman Empire functioned for centuries -- of which Italy was part, I can easily believe that such influence would extend to every part of culture and knowledge. "Theory" was your word, and "evidence" can be verbal or even myth. I learned this from others, which means that I have evidence of it being so -- rathe rthanmy just making it up.
I accede to your extensive knowledge of theings Medieval, but just because someone's view is different form yours does not mean it is wrong. My comment was oftered to counter the myth that palyers cards are based on Tarot. The actual source of the images are secondary. I notice you did not supply any "evidence" for your claims. I would be interested in what Royal families or stories the Italian cards are based on, but it probably is not of general interest, so a PM would work. While awaiting that evidence I will believe what evidence I have regardless if you like it or not.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
The current theory is that playing cards are Islamic in origin. The Italians added the court cards since Islam forbids the artistic representation of the human form.
Read a little about it here http://i-p-c-s.org/history.html In my extensive reading upon the subject I have never come across "stories" or Royal Families that the cards were based on. There is much conjecture and myth associated with the history of playing cards. the idea that the court Cards were based on actual Royal Families sounds like one of these. Particularly since you have only anecdotal evidence to support your claim. wikipedia has a pretty good history of plasying cards http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_card Micheal Dummett's "The Game of Tarot"is perhaps the best resource on the history of cards, the tarot, the game they were developed for and how they came to be associated with divination. Unfortunately it's hard to come by and quite expensive when you do find a copy. PLAYING CARDS, History of the Pack and Explanations of it Many Secrets. By Gurney Benham has quite a bit of information on the development of the court cards Playing Cards of the World by Kathleen Wowk is a good overall history to start with
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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JohnWells Inner circle The Southern Wild 1791 Posts |
And let me add that the whole "stumbling block" notion is specific and limited. Christian liberty does not require you to accede to another believer's false ideas. if another Christian is offended by my use of playing cards, I'm not going to chase after them doing charlier shuffles; neither am I going to put away my cards, unless I am in their home. The context of the Romans 13 passage is former pagans being offended by Christians engaging in actions thaT were not merely questionable, but possible blasphemous. So, drinking in front of an alcoholic, taking a recovering sex addict to a strip club (Naked and Unashamed-the one evangelistic technique you haven't tried), things like that. In the matter of playing cards, which had no occult association originally, and, indeed, were praised by the church, I think the application of Romans 13 is too strict.
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jnrussell Loyal user Michigan 207 Posts |
I can relate... I started doing magic when I was 8 years old (I'm 57 now), but was 13 before I was able to use an actual deck of cards (used flinch, uno, and animal crazy eights) because of my mom's convictions.
I have never run into an objection with regular playing cards... now objections on doing magic in general? Oh yeah! |
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