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blackESP
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On 2010-09-20 10:29, nimrod wrote:
Success is something you love when it's yours and hate when it's others'.


Are you implying that we didn't like the show because we're jealous of Derren's success? What utter nonsense!

He's been at this level of success for a few years now, and I've loved just about everything he's done. I was first in line to get tickets for his next tour yesterday. The acts of a jealous child? Of course not. If I was going to dislike his shows because of jealousy, it would have happend looooong ago.

The show wasn't very entertaining, simple as that, and even worse, wasn't really what was advertised.

It was advertised as a 'live' show involving something happening on an aeroplane. The big hook with live TV is the threat that something could go wrong.

Once it transpired that nothing of importance was going to happen live, the whole thing lost it's fizz.

Did you think for a nano-second that the guy wouldn't come through to be the hero? Of course not. Why would they waste an hour of TV building up to him failing? (Yes, before anyone says anything about the roulette Event, that was a different kettle of fish).

Once the risk is taken away, you might as well be sitting on a rollercoaster with no ups and downs.

A lot of people think this wasn't one of Derren's best show. I'm one of them. We're discussing it on a discussion forum. It doesn't mean we're jealous. You might be a mentalist, but that doesn't mean you know what people are thinking.
Smoking Camel
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I no longer smoke camel cigarettes.
Michael Daniels
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On 2010-09-21 00:53, shuren wrote:
Seems like Derren himself took the criticism in this thread quite personal (4th paragraph from the bottom):



Derren does seem to have been personally upset by the criticisms in this thread. I am sorry for that.

But as far as I can see from re-reading the posts in the thread there is very little, if any, personal criticism of Derren. In fact, the most ardent criticisms of the Hero show are from people (like myself) who are the most enthusiastic fans of Derren as a person and performer. We are just disappointed in this particular piece of TV because our own "Hero" has let us down on this occasion.

And I completely echo blackESP's response to nimrod - this has absolutely nothing to do with professional jealousy.

Mike
Pakar Ilusi
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Well, that just goes to show you... No matter how good you are, you can NEVER please everyone.

I'm actually surprised that he even cares what we think.

Anyhow, I for one, liked the Show...

If you don't or expected something else, well what can I say...

I look forward to his new book. Loved Tricks of The Mind. I actually bought two copies. (In case he's reading this... Smile)

Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
nimrod
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On 2010-09-21 03:57, blackESP wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-09-20 10:29, nimrod wrote:
Success is something you love when it's yours and hate when it's others'.


Are you implying that we didn't like the show because we're jealous of Derren's success? What utter nonsense!



I'm not implying anything, I responded to Pakar Ilusi that wondered why there is so much passion evolved.

And on a side note: Derren recreates himself (and our art) every 2 years. Most of the people on this forum haven't done that in a lifetime.

Nimrod , Israel
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2010-09-22 12:51, nimrod wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-09-21 03:57, blackESP wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-09-20 10:29, nimrod wrote:
Success is something you love when it's yours and hate when it's others'.


Are you implying that we didn't like the show because we're jealous of Derren's success? What utter nonsense!



I'm not implying anything, I responded to Pakar Ilusi that wondered why there is so much passion evolved.

And on a side note: Derren recreates himself (and our art) every 2 years. Most of the people on this forum haven't done that in a lifetime.

Nimrod , Israel


I think you are implying quite clearly that the back lash on Derren is because everyone is jealous. And its simply not true. There is a growing back lash more than likely because of the time he has been at the top. Its enevitable and will happen no matter who you are. Although you might be happy with his current re-invention its clear that the growing criticism not only from this community but other sources is telling a different story. He is changing and I suppose appealing to another market. Hes leaving many of his original fans behind.

Like I said before his best trick of all is to stay on the TV for so long. I feel sorry for the guy the show revolved around. If it is true that it was genuine and he saw all those negative reviews in the press then it can't be good for him.

Maybe something as personal as this should not be turned into high profile entertainment?

I think Derren has the best advice of all. Never read reviews.
entity
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I'm with Nimrod on this.

Derren works very hard for years on end to do what he does. Rather than rest on his laurels (as some here suggest) he constantly pushes the envelope, trying new things, stretching his creative talents and imagination, and DARING to do things that he knows may be new or uncomfortable for some who follow his performances.

His final product is his own vision, not anyone else's. To expect him to somehow fulfill YOUR vision of what he should do is ludicrous and petty.

Derren deserves ALL of his success.

And a word about what some here smarmily refer to as "his team" (a thinly-veiled implication that he is not responsible for his own success) -- From what I can tell he and Andy Nyman and Iain Sharkey come up with all of the material in his television series, specials and live shows. Though some of his routines are based upon classic effects, it is the remarkable spin that he puts on these routines that sets Derren light years apart from everyone else in Mentalism.

For this small group of people to constantly and consistently produce such imaginative, theatrically brilliant material that captures the public's imagination is nothing short of extraordinary.

Yes, his team also includes television executives, agents, managers, etc. but be sensible: What television or stage enterprise DOESN'T necessarily involve the same sort of "team"? To imply that this lessens Derren's own involvment or creativity is just plain foolishness.

I can't imagine why any mentalist -- whether he "GETS" what Derren is trying to do or not -- would publicly lambaste the leading performer of our craft. What do you hope to gain? Pulling down an icon?

Perhaps there are more positive and meaningful goals to which we all can aspire.

- T. Baxter
mindpunisher
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I think your way off track Entity. I don't think we expect him to fufill anything. We are expressing our views on his current work. Its clear a growing number don't like it. Nothing to do with fufiling any vision they just don't like it. It really is that simple. I'm sure there are "successful" people around that you don't personal;y like.

As for puling down an Icon? Man your just off your rocker here. Rise and fall of any success is built in by default no one has to pull it down its part of the process.

You will be sending us to confession next to wash away our sins.
mindpunisher
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Derren mentioned he criticised Shutter Island. I loved that film. Although I absolutely hated inception. In fact I walked out half way through. I didn't have anything personal against Leonardo. I just didn't like the film.

And Derren's biggest trick being is his longevitry on TV is actually meant as a compliment.

Although I do realise that "chats" on here are not like in the pub they become permanent stuck in time and carry much more weight than they would normally do before the internet.

I know what it feels like my recent hypnosias shows angered a few people who thought I was using plants and one wrote a scathing online review. Despite many who enjoyed the shows its the negative ones that sting. I guess the higher the profile the more stings your gonna get.

So I do empathise with him. On here you forget the permanence and public record of what sometimes feels like a conversation. Perhaps we should take that into consideration when making posts. We forget that he does read these boards.
nimrod
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Quote:

I think you are implying quite clearly that the back lash on Derren is because everyone is jealous.



Nope, I'll say it again because maybe I wasn't clear: I think in some cases there is way to much passion in some posts here because of jealousy. But I do have a possible reason for the back lash on Derren.
And I think the back lash on Derren has to do with poor understanding of our art. I'm not implying here anything, I'll say it up front: mentalists who haven't benefited from watching this show don't understand the basics of mentalism.
I'm not coming to this show as a layman to have some fun. If that was the case I would comment on the show in a TV forum and not here, and I would probably love it because a huge numbers of people loved the show (2.4 M).
I come to see the show as working mentalist who has a rare opportunity to watch a TV mentalism show. I've mentioned in an earlier post (on this page) the concepts and ideas I gained from watching the show. Please read it again, I believe you'll also gain much from it. I'm not saying it to put you down, I really mean it. As a mentalist who creates on a regular basis items for TV I've found this show highly educational. As a stage performer I know from first hand that TV material and ideas strongly influence my show.

And if this not a reason enough not to completely bash the show I'll say one last thing: the thing I like about Derren so much is that he is always exploring. When you explore new territories you sometimes find good things and sometimes bad things, but either way you improve your art. Even if you don't like the show, even if your don't get that there were some brilliant mentalism ideas and concepts in this show, you can't not respect Derren for taking the courage and trying to explore, to create something new.

Nimrod , Israel
mindpunisher
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>>>And I think the back lash on Derren has to do with poor understanding of our art<<<

Nimrod there is one important thing with due respect that you left out. There is also a shift from the media and many members of the public. It really has nothing to do with understanding its about entertaining. For many on this thread they don't find what he is doing these days entertaining. I hate spoon bending so I would never attempt to perform it. I think its old tired and corny. But others don't and perform successfully.

If you get so much from watching Derren then I think that's great I really do. But you have to accept not everybody sees it the same way. Otherwise you are sounding like a religeous leader.

I respect Derren for what he has achieved that doesn't mean I MUST like everything he puts out. I personally think he lost his edge a while back and he is starting to look very tired on tv. But then again isn't that an enevitable part of his and anybody's journey in showbiz?
mindpunisher
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On the otherhand if I were in your position Nimrod a performer in a different country who has TV shows then I might see things from your prespective. A masterclass in longevity on TV maybe. But I'm not.
nimrod
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On 2010-09-23 04:50, mindpunisher wrote:
A masterclass in longevity on TV maybe.


I can relate to that.

And I still advise fellow mentalists to try and see what they can take from this show. Even as a stage performer solely there are interesting mentalism concepts and implementations there.
And as for the fun factor I must agree this show wasn't fun at all for me, It was even boring. But this is only because I don't like reality shows and self improving shows of any kind. Actually the only thing I watch on TV are well scripted dramas. If I wasn't a mentalist I wouldn't have bothered watching this show, and you know what? I bet Derren wouldn't too. By the way, most TV writers/directors/actors I know watch very little (or not at all) TV and even then it's rarely the kind of shows they write/direct/act. I think the "fun to watch" factor is important, but as mentalists there are so many other factors, and if we overlook them we let our taste of TV shows blind us.
There are only few mentalism/hypnosis TV shows and each year it seems there are less. For me every show is a valuable resource and something I can learn from. And it's twice as true when it comes to a mentalist who each time tries to recreate himself.

Nimrod , Israel
mindpunisher
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From what you said it only reinforces what I believe about Derren and his TV machine. There is more to it than first catches the eye. Its not really about mentalism its about giving the "majority what they want". Who ever is behind the marketing strategies is the one responsable for keeping Derren where he is.

From that point of view I can only stand back in full admiration. The lottery prediction and the "events" series were more to do with marketing to a wider audience than the high quality mentalism we were used to getting before. The current one seems to be tapping into the reality TV trend more than anything else. Its not really about the mentalism anymore and hasn't been for quite a while.

Its about clever marketing but even that will run its course. Which is why I talk about his team. Not be smarmy but point out he is part (perhaps a central part) of a group of very clever people. I can do nothing but admire that greatly.

Although this kind of reminds me of Muhammad Ali who kept his boxing career going by holding on desparately and taking beatings when he should've stopped. I hope Derren knows when to take a break. Some feel its already overdue.
monkeypuzzletree
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On 2010-09-23 06:22, mindpunisher wrote:
Its not really about mentalism its about giving the "majority what they want".


It's never claimed to be about "mentalism." It's only ever claimed to be about Derren.

And it's never about giving the majority what they want. In art, you create something that excites YOU and just hope that other people feel the same. Apparently, you don't, mindpunisher, and that's fine, but to aimlessly speculate on what goes on behind the scenes seems a bit pointless.

Also, isn't it a good thing that it's NOT about "mentalism," that it's no longer about just "tricks"? Doesn't it excite you that it's become more about journeys, personal changes, stories, button hole cameras, faking entire airplane flights? It does me.

I'm surprised more aren't impressed with the scale of it alone.
blackESP
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On 2010-09-22 21:04, nimrod wrote:

mentalists who haven't benefited from watching this show don't understand the basics of mentalism.



I suppose you're right. Jimi Hendrix once said it's worth sitting through a bad gig, because you can always learn from it.

What I learned from Hero:

1: Don't advertise a show as live when it really isn't.

2: A grown man wearing dungarees will never be taken seriously.
mindpunisher
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This is a "commercial" venture which costs many thousands of pounds to produce. Do you honestly believe they put these shows out on an artistic whim?


I used to believe in santa clause at one time.
nimrod
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On 2010-09-24 03:46, monkeypuzzletree wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-09-23 06:22, mindpunisher wrote:
Its not really about mentalism its about giving the "majority what they want".


It's never claimed to be about "mentalism." It's only ever claimed to be about Derren.

And it's never about giving the majority what they want. In art, you create something that excites YOU and just hope that other people feel the same. Apparently, you don't, mindpunisher, and that's fine, but to aimlessly speculate on what goes on behind the scenes seems a bit pointless.

Also, isn't it a good thing that it's NOT about "mentalism," that it's no longer about just "tricks"? Doesn't it excite you that it's become more about journeys, personal changes, stories, button hole cameras, faking entire airplane flights? It does me.

I'm surprised more aren't impressed with the scale of it alone.


I hate it when someone says it better than me. You are absolutely right pal.
mindpunisher
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It may be about the art to you. But its about making money to the tv station. As far as making any claims - the show has never claimed to be about mentalism. Its never really been about Derren but the "stunts" he pulled off.

I am not going to put links up here but a five minute search will show many reviews from lay people who are disappointed that he no longer does his "clever tricks". And I have seen posts far worse than the ones on here.

Seriously there are dozens from lay people and the media all saying the same thing. Derren is a great mentalist/live performer and less than mediocre whatever hes doing now.
entity
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Thankfully hundreds of thousands seem to disagree.

You really are beating a dead horse, MP.

- entity
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