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Dannydoyle
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I wish we could all just agree that by any standard you care to apply he was a nutjob and religion is not his major malfunction whether he knew God or not.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-09-13 11:08, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Three points:

1. People's views tend to change over their lifetimes.
2. You can't generalize from a sample of one.
3. Hitler, the Crusades, Ayatollah Khomeini, etc. are nonetheless useful counter-examples to foolish generalizations.

John


I am not sure I understand number 3 on the list. Could you elaborate as to if you think it is a good idea to constantly liken things people do not agree with to Hitler or the others?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Let me pick a silly example. Suppose somebody says "Fine art and high culture lead to the development of higher ethical standards"; the easy counter-example is the Nazi embrace of Wagner's music.

Without fanning any flames, generalizations about Christianity and Islam are often countered with the other two.

As the old joke goes, all generalizations are worthless.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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Inductive logic argues from specific examples to generalizations based on these examples. For instance, when our parents tell us to look both ways before we cross the road, and we see examples of what can happen when people don’t follow this advice, we generalize that it is best to look both ways before we cross the road. We do not investigate every instance of people crossing the road to see if it is, indeed, wise to look both ways. Instead, we form a general rule- an inductive generalization- based on a handful of examples. As another example, we believe that it is good to brush our teeth several times a day because our parents and our dentist tell us it’s a good idea, and we see what happens to people who don’t brush their teeth. They suffer from tooth and gum decay. That is, we generalize from people’s advice and general life examples that it is wise to brush our teeth. Once again, we have not investigated every instance of people brushing or not brushing their teeth to see if this is a wise practice. We make an inductive generalization based on the patterns we see in examples we have examined. Because inductive arguments rest on generalizations, they are not 100% certain. They are merely “likely” or “probable.” A good example of inductive logic in real life is the scientific method. Scientists observe and test natural phenomena. Then, they make laws based on generalizations from what they have seen and tested. For example, scientists did not test every possible scenario in which gravity could operate in order to establish the law of gravity. Instead, they generalized from a variety of examples and tests which demonstrated the law of gravity.......And so on.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-09-13 11:51, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Let me pick a silly example. Suppose somebody says "Fine art and high culture lead to the development of higher ethical standards"; the easy counter-example is the Nazi embrace of Wagner's music.

Without fanning any flames, generalizations about Christianity and Islam are often countered with the other two.

As the old joke goes, all generalizations are worthless.

John


Thank you for the clarification John.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
critter
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Quote:
On 2010-09-13 11:51, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

As the old joke goes, all generalizations are worthless.

John


Which was exactly my point in bringing the counter's up. Someone else used a couple of Muslim protesters to generalize all Muslims and my point is "Look, we can play this stupid game all day."
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Dannydoyle
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I am not sure that anyone here has tried to charectorise ALL Muslims. I know for a fact I have not. Could you post for me where someone did that? I really must have missed it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
critter
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Man, Danny...
"I know it wasn't me," "I hope you weren't talking about me..." I've never been talking about you except when you've asked me a question.
The example I'm talking about was about one or two posts above my response to it. Pretty sure it was Big John, but I'll double check because I'd hate to credit the wrong person with such a weak argument. My post was basically identical only in my response I replaced Muslim extremist examples with Christian ones to point out how stupid it all is.
I'll find it for you and copy the whole thing.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
critter
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Quote:
On 2010-09-12 22:28, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-09-12 18:59, critter wrote:
Wrong.
If you can't even spell the NAME of the group right then you probably don't know enough about them to have an informed opinion.
The Crusades, Planned Parenthood Bombings, Hitler, Unionist bombings and torture of Catholics in Northern Ireland, Cromwell, IRA bombings, the list goes on, these are just the "extreme" Christians, right?
Well, yes that is right. Those ARE only the extremists. Funny how certain people can't apply the same criteria to "other" religions that they do their own.
Like I said, Jesus did not like hypocrites.


Now because he can not spell the name in one post, you claim he knows nothing about whatever. I thought GDW said we were not going to nit pick that stuff as it meant nothing? Now you have to simply throw around Nazi, and spellcheck problems? Lord.


A couple of wrong spellings is one thing, but when you misspell the NAME OF THE GROUP then it is a valid point to bring up. It's either ignorance or disrespect.
And how ironic that you bring up "nit picking" when you've taken the Nazi example out of it's original context in the exact same sentence.
Of course that's a tactic commonly used by Sean Hannity as well. He knows his audience will take his word for it without actually verifying.
You do remember me saying I listen to his show regularly in my car?
The problem here is that most of us here on the Café are capable of intelligent reasoning over blind devotion to the false prophets of the profits. We will fact check.
"Logic and Reason are the enemies of Faith." -Martin Luther, author of "On the Jewes and their lies," founder of the Protestant religion, extremist.

Yeah here it is, Big Jeff said,
Quote:
Meanwhile, in the peacefull muslum world, they burned American Flags and chanted " DEATH TO CHRISTIANS".

AND in London, muslums burned American flags and said we got what we deserved.

But, those were just the "radicals" right?


Pretty clear to me. Maybe I'm nitpicking.

My response?

Quote:
The Crusades, Planned Parenthood Bombings, Hitler, Unionist bombings and torture of Catholics in Northern Ireland, Cromwell, IRA bombings, the list goes on, these are just the "extreme" Christians, right?


Oh and right after I said it, I POINTED OUT THAT IT WAS A STUPID THING TO SAY! which was exactly the point:

Quote:
Well, yes that is right. Those ARE only the extremists. Funny how certain people can't apply the same criteria to "other" religions that they do their own.
Like I said, Jesus did not like hypocrites.


If you are going to argue with me, try reading what I actually said first.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
MagicSanta
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It should be pointed out that Christianity went through a reformation that Islam has yet to experience. Anyone attempting to live to the letter of the Bible is clearly identified as a whack job, in Islam attempting to live to the letter of the Koran is considered devout. Most people in the world tend to notice it isn't the year 987.
critter
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I can see that.
Then again, I get a lot of my philosophy from metal songs Smile

I think this one is relevant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8fm3Z7jgWM&ob=av2e
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Big Jeff
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Joseph Stalin killed MILLIONS of Russians, Stalin was a athiest.

You people who are pointing out that hilter(supposedly), IRA, Abortion Bombings, etc as examples of what 'christians' have done. Using those as examples to justify what muslim terrorists have done. There is one big difference.... Christian leaders denounce the abortion bombings, and christians don't celebratein the streets.

Muslims do, mass demostrations NEVER happen when a abortion clinic is bombed.


By the way, the mosque near ground zero is set to open on 9/11 2012.

Why THAT day? why not in march, april or may? just askin.


(if I spelled any words wong I apologize, TRY to answer my point)
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-09-13 15:01, critter wrote:
I can see that.
Then again, I get a lot of my philosophy from metal songs Smile



We'll know for the first time
If we're evil or divine;
We're the last in line
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-09-13 15:35, Big Jeff wrote:

You people who are pointing out that hilter(supposedly), IRA, Abortion Bombings, etc as examples of what 'christians' have done. Using those as examples to justify what muslim terrorists have done. There is one big difference.... Christian leaders denounce the abortion bombings, and christians don't celebratein the streets.

I don't see where anyone here has ever tried to JUSTIFY what Muslim terrorists have done. Most Muslims appear to oppose those terrorist actions. And Muslim leaders have denounced the 9/11 terrorist actions. This has all been documented in previous threads. And in the news, if you read a good cross section of the reporting.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2010-09-13 15:35, Big Jeff wrote:

By the way, the mosque near ground zero is set to open on 9/11 2012.

Why THAT day? why not in march, april or may? just askin.



Apparently THAT day is just made up. According to factcheck.org

Quote:
Is the center scheduled to open on Sept. 11, 2011?

Organizers say no. As best we can determine, the idea that the cultural center and mosque would open that day is unfounded speculation. Project organizers say that no official date has been set for the opening of the proposed center. Imam Rauf told Newsday back in May that it could take anywhere from 18 months to three years to raise the money to complete the project, and added that the center wouldn’t open on the anniversary of Sept. 11. Project organizers took to the social networking site Twitter as recently as Aug. 20 to knock down the claim, saying: "Reports that we will open on 9/11 or begin construction on 9/11 are false and inflammatory. Our timeline to build is 18 - 38 months."

The idea that the center and mosque would open on Sept. 11, 2011 — the 10-year anniversary of the terrorist attacks in 2001 — has been bandied about on blogs and discussion boards. The American Freedom Defense Initiative sponsored advertisements that may have also contributed to that thought. The initiative’s ads appeared on New York City buses and asked, "Why There?," with an image of a plane flying into a burning World Trade Center, next to a rendering of the proposed building with the words "September 11, 2011, WTC Mega Mosque."


John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
critter
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Jeff, Man... I think we are having two different conversations.
I am absolutely not defending terrorist attacks in any form. Whether the Christians do it, Muslims do it, Hindu's do it in the name of Kali, An atheist does it, I don't care. The religious orientation of the person doing it doesn't make it any better or worse. It's wrong to target civilians.
It's also wrong to judge somebody based solely on their religion.
There are doctors who have been mass murderers, I'll still take my chances if I have an infected wound.

Other than that, what Balducci said.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
tommy
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"Most Muslims appear to oppose those terrorist actions."

:)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
critter
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This is kind of beyond the scope of this topic and I really don't want to argue the finer points, but I think this guy has some interesting things to say:
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0922-21.htm
Some of this is related to something I said earlier.
Again, just food for thought, I don't want to get into a long discussion of this article.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Nosher
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After 9/11 there were candlelight vigils in Tehran,condemnation of the attacks from the leaders of Muslim countries, Muslim political,religious and scholarly groups around the world.

Yet the footage that was replayed over and over again on CNN and Fox of a couple of small celebratory groups of Palestinians and Hussein's pronouncement has led to the 'received knowledge' that the entire Muslim world danced a jig after 9/11.

For the most part, apart from a few loons of different varieties, I'd like to think that all of humanity decries the death of innocents - it's part of what makes us human after all.
Escapemaster-in-chief from all sorts of houdingplaces - Finnegans Wake
gdw
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Quote:
On 2010-09-13 12:30, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-09-13 11:51, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

As the old joke goes, all generalizations are worthless.

John


Which was exactly my point in bringing the counter's up. Someone else used a couple of Muslim protesters to generalize all Muslims and my point is "Look, we can play this stupid game all day."


Which is exactly why it is best to skip all the games and argue from first principles. From the ground up.


Quote:
On 2010-09-13 14:46, MagicSanta wrote:
It should be pointed out that Christianity went through a reformation that Islam has yet to experience. Anyone attempting to live to the letter of the Bible is clearly identified as a whack job, in Islam attempting to live to the letter of the Koran is considered devout. Most people in the world tend to notice it isn't the year 987.


Not dismissing what you said at all, but I think it should be noted what most probably ignore with this.

That being, the "reformation" would involve saying "we shouldn't really be taking this literally." Now, if only now, or however long ago for christianity, they are thinking this, then would those that wrote the book so much earlier than that, and would have been the one's establishing how to "take" it, literally or not, have intended it to be taken the way they do now (post reformation?)

In other words, if you aren't going to put that much weight in the book, then what exactly are you basing your religion on? Yes, the book(s) was(were) written by flawed men, but said book(s) is (are) the only source for your religion. In other words, the only source from which to know your religion is/are these books. If they aren't "accurate" or reliable, then why continue with the religion once you realize that?

In other words, once you realize the foundation is so flawed, why keep living in the building?

If you actually read the books, you should realize that you can't just pick and choose. If you take the creation story, and Adam and Eve as metaphorical, or allegorical, then you have removed the main purpose for the coming of jesus. The later is completely built upon the former. To take one as mythical is to remove all reality (from the dying for your sins part at least) from the other.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
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