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MagicSanta
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You are correct GWD and your point is valid and one I am aware of. I have my own view of Christianity which I think makes far more sense than those with believe, and note I said 'believe', that they take the Bible literally. That being said the issue at hand is there has to be a point where a belief system has to be altered in action to represent the reality of the world situation. Lets face it, an eye for an eye? Stoning a woman you don't consider proper? Enslaving others? Treating a wife as property? Those are wrong approaches and while I know there are sickos out there that believe some of those are fine and good and LIVE it they are the great minority, thank goodness.

There are people who really and trully believe that it is fine to kill another person who does not share their beliefs. I have been to countries where that belief exist and have seen bodies just laying in the streets. The simple fact is Islam has followers that are both very sophesticated and living in modern cities and those that live in a manner very much the same as it was a thousand years ago. No one has the guts, and I can see why, to stand up and say "This is flat out wrong, those statements in the Koran are flat out wrong, we do not have the right or obligation to kill those who believe differently, we do not want our young men to die as martyrs, we need to accept that other beliefs are just as valid or invalid as ours and it is just a question of faith"' The problem is if someone does take a stand like that there are thousands who are willing to kill that person and realllllly believe it is a great thing and they will be rewarded.

Yes, Islam needs to realize that they can exist without that chain of hate but the simple fact is those chains are fanstastic forms of power for Imans and political leaders. It also is a great way for those without any power to feel good about themselves. They live in a hut with a dirt floor and poop into a pot but, by golly, THEY are right with their version of God and they are thus better than everyone who ISN'T a believer in fact they have, in their minds, the power of death over those in their towers and marble floors. Islam just happens to be the widest example of this extreme belief without consideration of others being taked into account. This is because other religions that are also based on fundimental beliefs that have not changed for centuries are not prostelizing and of the belief that doing so by the sword is the way to go.

Muslims are not a bad people and many, most in fact, either realize they shouldn't act on the doctrine or they realize that they have a pretty good life in the states, Canada, or Wisconsin and don't want to blow it. The fact remains that there are hundreds of thousands of them that not only would kill you or me but their own religion followers who are not, in their minds, at their level of religions faith. Those people are like comparing a modern soldier to those guys who use to line up for God and Country and walked in a straight line up to each other and blow each others brains out while their leaders stood on a hill and watched. Want to be a Muslim? Cool, they are as misguided as anyone else, but as long as they don't hassle me I won't hassle them and if they want to be friends and we have things in common then we be pals. It is wrong, though, to hassle them just because of how they look, believe, or dress. I will react to their actions though.
balducci
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At several points in this thread, the topic of free speech was raised. Below is something I read today in an article about the financial crisis in Greece. I thought it was an interesting quote about freedoms, that's all:

“Democracy destroys itself because it abuses its right to freedom and equality. Because it teaches its citizens to consider audacity as a right, lawlessness as a freedom, abrasive speech as equality, and anarchy as progress.”

- Isocrates

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/featu......s-201010
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Woland
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Balducci,

That's why those who crafted the Constitution of the United States ensured that it would not be a pure democracy, but a democracy tempered by (1) a division of powers, so that the powers of the government would be divided among three branches, no one of which could dominate, and (2) the decidedly undemocratic Senate, whose rules permit wiser and cooler heads to temper the audacity, lawlessness, and anarchy of the demos.

Unfortunately, we perverted the original plan by opting for direct election of Senators, and by allowing the executive branch to become overweeningly powerful.

But the limitation of federal powers to those delineated powers defined by the Constitution, with the more general powers of government inherited from the English common law maintained by the States, also served as a check on the abuses of unfettered democracy.

The problem being of course, that once 51% of the people realize they can live off the taxes of the other 49%, there is no stopping them.

Woland
gdw
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Quote:
On 2010-09-13 15:35, Big Jeff wrote:
Joseph Stalin killed MILLIONS of Russians, Stalin was a athiest.

You people who are pointing out that hilter(supposedly), IRA, Abortion Bombings, etc as examples of what 'christians' have done. Using those as examples to justify what muslim terrorists have done. There is one big difference.... Christian leaders denounce the abortion bombings, and christians don't celebratein the streets.

Muslims do, mass demostrations NEVER happen when a abortion clinic is bombed.


By the way, the mosque near ground zero is set to open on 9/11 2012.

Why THAT day? why not in march, april or may? just askin.


(if I spelled any words wong I apologize, TRY to answer my point)


The difference with stalin is that atheism (not an ism) says nothing, has no edicts or commandments, nothing to tell anyone what to do, where as religion has plenty, often including encouragement of violence, and even killing those that disagree with you. So, ironically, the "leaders" denouncing those things are often the one's NOT being "christian."
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
MagicSanta
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They really schedule to open 9-11-12? If so that kind of adds a clear messege and it isn't good.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-09-14 14:44, MagicSanta wrote:
They really schedule to open 9-11-12? If so that kind of adds a clear messege and it isn't good.

See below.

Quote:
On 2010-09-13 16:11, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-09-13 15:35, Big Jeff wrote:

By the way, the mosque near ground zero is set to open on 9/11 2012.

Why THAT day? why not in march, april or may? just askin.



Apparently THAT day is just made up. According to factcheck.org

Quote:
Is the center scheduled to open on Sept. 11, 2011?

Organizers say no. As best we can determine, the idea that the cultural center and mosque would open that day is unfounded speculation. Project organizers say that no official date has been set for the opening of the proposed center. Imam Rauf told Newsday back in May that it could take anywhere from 18 months to three years to raise the money to complete the project, and added that the center wouldn’t open on the anniversary of Sept. 11. Project organizers took to the social networking site Twitter as recently as Aug. 20 to knock down the claim, saying: "Reports that we will open on 9/11 or begin construction on 9/11 are false and inflammatory. Our timeline to build is 18 - 38 months."

The idea that the center and mosque would open on Sept. 11, 2011 — the 10-year anniversary of the terrorist attacks in 2001 — has been bandied about on blogs and discussion boards. The American Freedom Defense Initiative sponsored advertisements that may have also contributed to that thought. The initiative’s ads appeared on New York City buses and asked, "Why There?," with an image of a plane flying into a burning World Trade Center, next to a rendering of the proposed building with the words "September 11, 2011, WTC Mega Mosque."


John
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Read my previous post, Santa. They don't even have the funding secured to begin building, let alone set a date. The spokesman, Iman Rauf emphatically denies that they will open on 9/11 of any year. Yet their opponents have placed ads, put billboards on buses, etc.

JOhn
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Pakar Ilusi
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Quote:
On 2010-09-13 21:53, MagicSanta wrote:
You are correct GWD and your point is valid and one I am aware of. I have my own view of Christianity which I think makes far more sense than those with believe, and note I said 'believe', that they take the Bible literally. That being said the issue at hand is there has to be a point where a belief system has to be altered in action to represent the reality of the world situation. Lets face it, an eye for an eye? Stoning a woman you don't consider proper? Enslaving others? Treating a wife as property? Those are wrong approaches and while I know there are sickos out there that believe some of those are fine and good and LIVE it they are the great minority, thank goodness.

There are people who really and trully believe that it is fine to kill another person who does not share their beliefs. I have been to countries where that belief exist and have seen bodies just laying in the streets. The simple fact is Islam has followers that are both very sophesticated and living in modern cities and those that live in a manner very much the same as it was a thousand years ago. No one has the guts, and I can see why, to stand up and say "This is flat out wrong, those statements in the Koran are flat out wrong, we do not have the right or obligation to kill those who believe differently, we do not want our young men to die as martyrs, we need to accept that other beliefs are just as valid or invalid as ours and it is just a question of faith"' The problem is if someone does take a stand like that there are thousands who are willing to kill that person and realllllly believe it is a great thing and they will be rewarded.

Yes, Islam needs to realize that they can exist without that chain of hate but the simple fact is those chains are fanstastic forms of power for Imans and political leaders. It also is a great way for those without any power to feel good about themselves. They live in a hut with a dirt floor and poop into a pot but, by golly, THEY are right with their version of God and they are thus better than everyone who ISN'T a believer in fact they have, in their minds, the power of death over those in their towers and marble floors. Islam just happens to be the widest example of this extreme belief without consideration of others being taked into account. This is because other religions that are also based on fundimental beliefs that have not changed for centuries are not prostelizing and of the belief that doing so by the sword is the way to go.

Muslims are not a bad people and many, most in fact, either realize they shouldn't act on the doctrine or they realize that they have a pretty good life in the states, Canada, or Wisconsin and don't want to blow it. The fact remains that there are hundreds of thousands of them that not only would kill you or me but their own religion followers who are not, in their minds, at their level of religions faith. Those people are like comparing a modern soldier to those guys who use to line up for God and Country and walked in a straight line up to each other and blow each others brains out while their leaders stood on a hill and watched. Want to be a Muslim? Cool, they are as misguided as anyone else, but as long as they don't hassle me I won't hassle them and if they want to be friends and we have things in common then we be pals. It is wrong, though, to hassle them just because of how they look, believe, or dress. I will react to their actions though.


Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Natural Mystic
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I seen this bumper sticker in North Carolina in 2009.


"Homeland Security: Fighting terrorism since 1492."


I guess terrorism is in the eyes of beholder.
"You never change the existing reality by
fighting it. Instead, create a new model that
makes the old one obsolete."
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
tommy
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Alex Breaks Down The Bizarre CIA Ties to Ground Zero Mosque

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKzMbjB5hdY
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
gdw
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Quote:
On 2010-09-14 18:22, tommy wrote:
Alex Breaks Down The Bizarre CIA Ties to Ground Zero Mosque

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKzMbjB5hdY


That man makes my pia mater crawl. Do you know how long it took me to remember/find what that was called? Too long as I left that video playing in the back ground while I did it.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
tommy
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The show goes on. Please take your places to play your accustomed roles in the drama.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicfish
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Smoke another one Tommy.
tommy
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Put this one in your pipe and smoke it Magicfish: The Project for the New American Century. In The Project for the New American Century, well before it all happened they wrote; they needed something on the scale of a Pearl Harbour event to motivate the American people and the world into action. And at the start of the new century 2001 BINGO, 9/11 comes along right on queue to kick off the New American Century, they get their wish. I mean these guys, I guarantee you, would go for a scratch-and-win, and every card would be bingo, they'd win. They've got so much luck, don't they? Talk about an act of magic! These guys are the best in the business. As my pal Alan Watt said more or less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jPzAakHPpk

Smoking guns
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Big Jeff
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Maybe the 'elite' had the buildings rigged with explosives when they were built, so that someday they could blow them and start the NWO.

Maybe those weren't really firemen, maybe they set the explosives after the planes hit.
Pakar Ilusi
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Belief. Faith. Conviction.

These can and have been dangerous.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicfish
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You're truly a sick individual, tommy.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2010-09-12 20:27, Woland wrote:
Critter,

I'm not sure exactly what you objected to in my comments. But I think that there are more than a few Muslim immigrants here in the USA, who came here precisely to escape the oppressiveness of shariah law. They did not expect to find an atmosphere in which the perpetrators of shariah law with all its excesses would be tolerated much less encouraged.

America is a country that in its founding documents explicitly placed itself under God's law. But not shariah law.

Woland


Um, no it did not. It was explicitly placed separate from ANY religious law.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-09-22 18:48, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-09-12 20:27, Woland wrote:
Critter,

I'm not sure exactly what you objected to in my comments. But I think that there are more than a few Muslim immigrants here in the USA, who came here precisely to escape the oppressiveness of shariah law. They did not expect to find an atmosphere in which the perpetrators of shariah law with all its excesses would be tolerated much less encouraged.

America is a country that in its founding documents explicitly placed itself under God's law. But not shariah law.

Woland


Um, no it did not. It was explicitly placed separate from ANY religious law.


Strongly concur with gdw here, particularly evidenced by the fact that (if you're discussing the Christian perspective) the First Amendment (Have any God you want, or none) is in direct conflict with the First Commandment (thou shalt have no other Gods before me).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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