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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Burning Books (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Pakar Ilusi
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I'm not advocating censoring it, I'm for Free Speech. I'm not American btw...

I am just pointing out what will happen which would not happen if they don't burn it.

If you say that they'll kill anyway, those are the ones already killing people.. I say no need to give the others a reason to justify it.

General Petraeus says as much... I agree with him.

Look at it this way, you are free to insult someone's dead parents, vehemently even... Free Speech.

If however you are surprised when the son punches you in the face, I say that's just you being unrealistic...

The sad thing here is that the Pastor will be fine, it's the people in Islamic countries that become targets...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
gdw
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Quote:
On 2010-09-08 16:01, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
I'm not advocating censoring it, I'm for Free Speech. I'm not American btw...

I am just pointing out what will happen which would not happen if they don't burn it.

If you say that they'll kill anyway, those are the ones already killing people.. I say no need to give the others a reason to justify it.

General Petraeus says as much... I agree with him.

Look at it this way, you are free to insult someone's dead parents, vehemently even... Free Speech.

If however you are surprised when the son punches you in the face, I say that's just you being unrealistic...

The sad thing here is that the Pastor will be fine, it's the people in Islamic countries that become targets...


I wasn't saying they will kill anyways, I'm saying IF he burns the book(s) and IF they kill after that, they will STILL be the sole persons responsible for their actions.

I completely agree with what you are saying. Though, the guy punching me in the nose will still be the one responsible for punching me. I doubt many people will care though and say I deserved it Smile Does that really deserve a winking smilie? Any who.

I am also saying that this is the reasoning people do use to censor. I am not saying you are censoring, or even advocating censoring, just that the above is exactly what people try to use to justify censoring.

"I say no need to give the others a reason to justify it." And I say no one is. If someone is going to kill someone over burning a book, then they didn't need any additional reason to justify it, or to do it.

We should not let others control us with their threats.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Pakar Ilusi
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Okay then, I get you, but this looks like a car crash just waiting to happen.

Everyone is screaming but the driver just won't stop...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
MagicSanta
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He'll get the $140,000 and then some to pay off the church.

Book burnings always bothered me for some reason, if you don't want to read a book don't, if others want to let 'em. I use to go to the library every Wednesday morning and there was a woman who came in every Wed as well and she would stomp up to the desk, put down a stack of books and demand they be banned because they were 'an outrage to God!'. They would tell her no, she would stomp out, and the next week do it all again. I didn't like her.

As for those threatening violence (do these people EVER not threaten violence? Even Castro thinks they need to mellow out) they are looking for any excuse.
tommy
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He his more popular than John Lennon.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pakar Ilusi
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On 2010-09-08 17:12, tommy wrote:
He his more popular than John Lennon.


Imagine.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Bill Hilly
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I wonder what would have happened if, when he first said he was going to do it, nobody responded. Or if they just said, "Yeah, well, go ahead."

Take the hot air out of a balloon and it won't float.
LobowolfXXX
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Do people (here) perceive this as substantially different from flag burning?

+1 on just about all of gdw's comments, btw. And whatever else this will do, by definition, it certainly won't provoke any *moderates* to kill anyone.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Pakar Ilusi
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Yep, by definition, they're no longer "moderate" if they kill for this yah?

Anyhow, I personally think that this goes beyond flag burning... This will hurt the feelings of 1.5 Billion Muslims across many different countries... Only a small percentage will get violent over it really, but even that is a lot with that number...

I hope he doesn't do it.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
MagicSanta
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A lot of Muslims don't care about the feelings of billions of others so frankly they need to lump it and realize that this one guys action doesn't reflect everyone else in the US while at the same time the moderate Muslims expect everyone to accept that extremist Muslims do not reflect them. If the Muslims are so upset tell them to burn a Bible or a Hardy Boys book or something.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-09-09 00:58, MagicSanta wrote:
A lot of Muslims don't care about the feelings of billions of others so frankly they need to lump it and realize that this one guys action doesn't reflect everyone else in the US while at the same time the moderate Muslims expect everyone to accept that extremist Muslims do not reflect them. If the Muslims are so upset tell them to burn a Bible or a Hardy Boys book or something.


Santa, you know I respect you, but back off the Hardy Boys. Seriously.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-09-09 00:31, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Do people (here) perceive this as substantially different from flag burning?

In terms of the context and possible range of consequences, yes. Substantially different.

But similar, perhaps even identical, to flag burning if you only look at it in the sense of a freedom of speech issue.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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No....they re wrote the Hardy Boys to make them politically correct and I refuse to read them and my mom gave my original sexist and racist copies away.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-09-09 01:03, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-09-09 00:31, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Do people (here) perceive this as substantially different from flag burning?

In terms of the context and possible range of consequences, yes. Substantially different.

But similar, perhaps even identical, to flag burning if you only look at it in the sense of a freedom of speech issue.


I mean as a matter of principle, divorced of all consequences and legal significance.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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When you put it that way, I don't really understand the question. Don't consequences factor into / define matters of principle for us in some way?

Quote: "When someone does something out of principle, it means that they have a moral basis for what they are doing."

I haven't given this much thought, but don't morals come out of considerations of consequences? With no consequences to consider, even hypothetically, I think nothing really matters.

So I guess my answer then would be, burn is burn, no difference.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Happy Hank
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I say BURN BABY BURN!

BOTH my kids are lifers in the military - when I asked them if this demostraition would impare their saftey, they said yes, but you also know what they said that shocked and moved me? The said it's their job to defend our freedom, stupid book burning or not!

I'm not a kook at either end of the spectrum, but were does it end? banned cartoons, banning South Park episodes, squeemish about book burnings?

Let's not forget our history, the CHRISTIAN INQUISITIONS was a response to the Muslim crucades - I bet they don't teach that in public schools now a days. If other countries burn our flag and urinate on the bible, then what's a little quran burning.

If you think I'M uncivilized, then maybe you never attended an European 'soccer' game!

HH
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-09-09 01:30, balducci wrote:
When you put it that way, I don't really understand the question. Don't consequences factor into / define matters of principle for us in some way?

Quote: "When someone does something out of principle, it means that they have a moral basis for what they are doing."

I haven't given this much thought, but don't morals come out of considerations of consequences? With no consequences to consider, even hypothetically, I think nothing really matters.

So I guess my answer then would be, burn is burn, no difference.


It may mean what you mean by consequences. Let's say I have two neighbors, one of them is very forgiving, and one is very vengeful. If I were to steal from either of them, that one would be upset, but the first one would take no further action, and the second one might do anything from call the cops to poison my children.

By "principle" and "consequences," by way of this analogy, I mean to frame the discussion in such a way as that by which we might say that in principle, there is no difference between stealing from either of these neighbors, even though the consequences of stealing from one of them might be much worse than the consequences of stealing from the other.

By this illustration, I don't mean to imply that the initial question is rhetorical; I'm not saying that these two neighbors parallel any actors; I'm just using them to illustrate what I mean by the question. For instance, there might also be one neighbor who is very poor, living paycheck to paycheck, and another is a millionaire, and you might say (or you might not) that there IS a difference in principle between stealing from one vs. the other. So, by consequences, I mean that the distinction, if any, should not depend on consequences to ME, as the actor, but if you think that there's an important qualitative difference in the consequences to those being acted upon (e.g. the "patriot" in the flag burning example and the religious person in the holy book example), then by all means, that should be factored in, in the way that you might find a difference in stealing from someone who desperately needs the money vs. stealing from someone who doesn't notice it's gone.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
MagicSanta
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Happy Hank! Good to see you my brother!
Happy Hank
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You too brother.

HH
Scott Cram
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Required viewing for any discussion concerning the Crusades: James Burke : The Day The Universe Chang......e Above"
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