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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Tricks specific to cyclical/mathematical stacks? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

gdw
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I know there have been plenty of threads about tricks specific to Mnemonica, and Aaronson, and plenty of effects for stay stack, but I was wondering if there were effects specific to cyclical stacks, like Si Stebbins.

Now, not specifically Si Stebbins, but tricks that can be done with any cyclical/mathematical stack. Not sure if "mathematical" is the correct term either. Stacks like Stebbins, where each card is a specific number up in value from the previous, and the suits follow a rule set as well.

I am curious as I developed a stack for a mem deck which contains a cyclical stack in the same way that Mnemonica contains a stay stack, and I am hoping to take advantage of it.

Thanks
Glenn
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Steven Keyl
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Glenn,

I too use a cyclic stack. The things that I do to make use of this is execute one out faro and instantly every card is next to its mate. There are a number of effects that make use of this arrangement. And of course, I'm sure you can come up with several yourself. I do a couple of effects where I can keep the arrangement of the cards undisturbed.

A second out faro and the entire deck is composed of 4 of a kinds. Because you know the cyclic order of the cards you can have a spectator name any value. One cut later and you can produce the 4 named values with any standard card reveal. Of course you can then display all the cards as 4 of a kind (a la Ackerman's Opener).

A couple more faros and you can use the index principle out of Mnemonica to determine a spectator's selection. A couple more faros and you're back to your original stack order.

I also use stay stack effects as well by cutting at #26 and telling the spec that I cut exactly in the middle. I have them count the cards to prove this and now we're in stay stack.

My suit order is randomized unlike Si Stebbins. If you were using a strict suit rotating stack then you would probably have more options available.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
gdw
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The cyclical stack I end up with does not exactly do what you are describing. However, in the process of getting INTO the stack I go through grouping all the sets like that. It just isn't two faros out of my stack.

Also, the stack I end up with doesn't go into stay stack like that, that is, not by simply reversing half the deck.

I CAN get into a stay stack from the stack I am using, but it's a bit of a different method of getting into it.

Also, technically, the stack I end up with is a 51 card deck cyclical stack, lol. Basically, if you remove the AS, it's cyclical, but, even with the AS, is progressive, like Si Stebbins, in that each card is able to be counted to from the previous.

It's actually not as simple as most stacks like this though. Each card progresses to the next, but not as simple as just add 3, and go to the next suit.

It's an interesting stack that has, essentially, 3 rules, which cover value and suit, and it is all the result of faros.

I didn't exactly go into it trying to make this "cyclical" stack, but I discovered it within the stack I developed as I got into my stack with faro's, and I figured here would be some mathematical stack within it. And of course, there was.

So, I am looking to see how I can take advantage of that.

Now I am wondering if I could create a similar sack to the one I have now out of Si Stebbins. Unfortunately, that would mean starting over learning what built in effects I could find.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Bad Conjuror
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I'm not sure if this will apply to your stack. You may have to play around with it. But Chris Mayhew has a very cool Any Card at Any Number effect called CAANDY. It can be purchased on Vanishing Inc.
I'm not sure how much I can talk about the trick here, but it does meet the requirements of your question. Even if it can't be applied to your stack, it is still a very cool routine.
Hope this helps.
captainsmiffy
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It is indeed a very cool routine and dovetails nicely with Up The Ante, as I pointed out in an earlier thread a while back.
Have you tried 'Up The Ante' yet?? The ultimate gambling demo....a self-working wonder! See the reviews here on the cafe.
gdw
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Grr, this is frustrating. I may have to abandon my current stack and rework it from Si Stebbins.

That all depends on whether or not there is a simple procedure for getting FROM Si Stebbins TO all the suits in numerical order. Tht is, one that does not involve six faros, and/or dealing.

My current stack goes to all in order in a bit less work than Mnemonica does, so if there is a simpler way to o it with Si Stebbins, I may have to re work my stack around it.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Steven Keyl
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Maybe instead of abandoning your existing stack you should focus on its particular strengths and how you can maximize those strengths. For me, being able to instantly grab any 4-of-a-kind is big. Plus I can do effects that are specific to this kind of arrangement, like Up The Ante.

Did you create this particular stack for specific reasons or was it more of a mental exercise to see if you could do it?
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
gdw
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Quote:
On 2010-09-16 13:51, Steven Keyl wrote:
Maybe instead of abandoning your existing stack you should focus on its particular strengths and how you can maximize those strengths. For me, being able to instantly grab any 4-of-a-kind is big. Plus I can do effects that are specific to this kind of arrangement, like Up The Ante.

Did you create this particular stack for specific reasons or was it more of a mental exercise to see if you could do it?


Well, a bit of both. It evolved out of an attempt to create a pure mathematical stack where in each card is connected to its position with a "simple" formula/process. Many have tried, I was just giving it my stab at it. It seemed to make sense to try this with faros given their inherent mathematical features.

Any who, I ended up essentially doing a five faro stack, with the deck starting all suits in numerical order, as opposed to NDO, where the orders reverse half way through, so as to allow for more consistent math.

So, the formula to calculate the positions was a bit more work than I had desired, but I noticed that, if I removed the Ace of Spades, the stack was cyclical, and each card proceeded to the next following three basic rules.

The nice thing about it, that was one of the features I wanted in a mem deck was being able to bring it back to NDO, or at least something that looked like NDO, like all suits in numerical order. This stack was merely 3 faros away from that.

Unfortunately, there was numerical repetition more frequently than in Si Stebbins. That is,rather than ever thirteenth card being the same value, it was every eight. Though the suit/red black pattern was appeared far more random. Also, due to one of the "rules" the values didn't repeat exactly. So, it would look like the patter would be, for example, 9S, 4D, QD, then eight cards after the 9S would be 9D, 4C, QC, then the next would be 9C, 4H, QH but the last one would be 9H, 5S, KS.

So the "pattern" wasn't exact, but repeated more often then a regular rosary stack did.

Any who, the main thing I liked was that I could do 3 out faros and have the deck in numerical order.

Wanting something that was a bit more random looking, I went through a procedure similar to that of getting into Mnemonica, of course, staring with the deck in numerical order rather than european NDO, doing 5 faros rather than 4, and then reversing a packet of cards and faroing that into the bulk, and then a cut, again, all slightly different that Mnemonica, just based on the number of cards that made the stack look best.

So, the stack is able to go to "NDO" in the same essential procedure as Mnemonica, but with one less faro which is nice, AND I was able to adapt a bunch of effects that are Mnemonica specific to my stack.

Namely Spelling Colours, Values, Suits and Card (I thikn that's the name) Any Hand Called For, and Super Poker, as well as a seven card bank for spelling where in every card is spelt the same, and revealed on either the last letter, or the next card, so if they deal turning face up, you don't have to remember anything extra like spelling different cards with the "of" or without, or including "the" or dropping the "s" on the suit etc like with Mnemonica, of course, Tamariz's bank gives, I think, 10 cards rather than 7, but it's a trade off.

So, I have not actually fully memorized this stack yet. I really like that Memonica contains the half stack as an added value, and was hoping I could take advantage of the psuedo "cyclical stack" I have hidden in mine, however it looks like there would be a LOT more built into Si Stebbins that would be useful as far as cyclical stacks go.
Plus, it is easy to convert to a stay stack (though technically I can do that in mine as well, but I think Si Stebbins does it a bit nicer.)

So, if there is a simple enough process to go from Si Stebbins to numerical order, then I think it may be worth trying. If I had already memorized the stack I would probably not bother. Also, given that I initially nearly memorized the stack at its five faro stage, then decided to add the extra process to change the final stack, thus abandoning all the mem work I had done, to sort of start over again isn't that big of a deal. I have time.

Though I am rather happy with the effects I have adapted to work with the stack I have, I did not mind the process trying to do so, so I wouldn't mind doing it again with a similarly modified Si Stebbins. Also, if it doesn't work, I can always go back to the stack I have now.

Sorry if hat was a bit lengthy, but hopefully answers your question.
Thanks.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Silvano
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Here is one my own trick:

Use cyclic stack like Si Stebbins, Richard Osterlind or my own SIlvano's stack and do this:

Let the spectator cut deck sveral times after you do some kind of cyclic shuffle (for example charlier)

Than deal first 5-10 cards to 1st spectator, next 5-10 card to 2nd, next 5-10 to 3rd, and next ones to 4th. You must give equal number of cards to all spectators.

Than let the spectators shuffle dealed cards and than take out one and remember it. After remembering cards, let the 1st spectator put his card in 3rd spectators remaning cards, Also let 3rd spectator put his card in 1st spectator remaninig cards, 2nd in 4th and 4th in 2nd. Than ask one spectator to pick all groups one on another and give card to you.

You than take 1st 5-10 card (depend how much you give to spectators) and locate wich card is non logical card in part of cyclic sequence. You do the same with rest of spectators and read the chosen cards with that method.

A hope you peoples like this idea.
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