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Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
Okay, maybe I can be objective here as I have books out on both the Cups and Balls and the chop cup.
Start with a 3 cups and balls routine. I feel that this is not only the starting point for cups and balls work, but the starting point for sleight of hand magic in general. You should learn how to produce and vanish balls bare handed, using a wand, and using cups. You will learn how to simulate many things like putting a ball into your other hand, or under a cup. Removing a cup. You will learn much about the psychology of magic if you study how and why routines are constructed. You will learn how to secretly load objects large and small under the cups. The Chop cup is fine for many things and short and sweet routines that can be done often in todays world are welcome. But you won't learn as much about sleight of hand, or magic generally. If you are considering my Micro Chop Routine please remember that it was developed for a specific situation. You can do it when your audiences are very small. (one or two people can enjoy it) It can be done standing, surrounded, and without a table to work on. It can be carried entirely on your person. But it can't be seen from very far away, and the final load balls, being very small, don't have the impact of bigger balls or pieces of fruit or vegetables. It's not often that I disagree with Bill Palmer, either. He's one of the most knowledgable people in magic. But I was thinking of a stepstone for learning. He was probably thinking about getting to a point where you have a usable routine. Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
I posted a message in this thread the other day and it has vanished. WHY?
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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motown Inner circle Atlanta by way of Detroit 6127 Posts |
There a couple of excellent cup & Ball books by Eddie Joseph.
You can get them through Abbotts. Many clever moves and ideas.
"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
– Karl Germain |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Bear in mind that many of the "clever moves" in the Eddie Joseph books were completely unworkable. Anyone who actually saw Eddie do the cups and balls would testify to the fact that he was a very nice man, but that was about it.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-09-29 17:37, Dennis Loomis wrote: Dennis makes some very good points here. However, I can think of other starting points for sleight of hand magic that make as much sense as a three cups and balls routine. For example, I would recommend that a person who wants to learn basic sleight of hand start with coins. Anything you can do with a coin can be applied to any other small, flat object. There are very few sleights that you can do with coins that you can't do with a ball. Most of the ones that don't work well with balls can be adapted in some way to work with them, so your work won't be wasted at all. I don't believe there is any one specific answer as to the "best" way to get started in the cups and balls. I know what I would recommend for anyone who was just getting interested in the trick, though. Before you do anything or buy anything watch as many routines as you can find, and watch them with the most critical eye you can manage to muster up. Get an idea of what you would like to learn to do, and then do it. This may go counter to the traditional way of learning magic. However, there is a school of pedagogy that applies to language, music, painting and any other skill that you want to learn, and that is to learn things that have a context. In other words, learn things that you will actually use. Then practice them in context. The two reasons I prefer to start someone with the chop cup is that most of the routines, at least the good ones, focus on the final loads. If you can do the final loads for a chop cup routine, then adapting the techniques to a cup and ball routine is not difficult at all. After that, then all that you need is the prelude, that is, the material that you do with the three cups and the little balls. This is basically starting by learning how to deliver the punch line, then learning all the different ways to do the setup for it. If you decide that you want to start with a three cup routine, do it. Get Ammar's DVD's. Get his book if you can find it. Also get volume 2 of DeCova's Treasures. There are a couple of really deceptive moves on that DVD. There are a number of other DVD's that are very good, but I think these are the most basic. I would recommend that you learn to do the cups and balls standing. This applies to the chop cup as well. Once you overcome the technical limitations this may impose on you, you will appreciate the presentational advantages.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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RogueMD Regular user 133 Posts |
Bill/Dennis-
Additional thanks for your thoughts! The "clarity of effect" with a chop cup, along with the addressing the final load (as Mr Palmer points out)was what I felt was strong about STARTING with the chop cup (and moving to 2 and then 3 cups later). The fact that the chop cup has an additional "secret" not found with (most) 3 cup routines will be beneficial to me as a beginner. (Now having said this, I know there are beginner 3 cup routines that are for all intents and purposes- self-working!) Bill, you mention learning the routines standing. May I ask why? I certainly want to end up with a standing, outdoor, busking type routine ala Gazzo, but certainly thought the standing versions were more "advanced", as it were, by nature of cover (lack of!) for loads, etc. Thanks again everybody... very GOOD information!! Michael |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
If you can do it standing, you can do it in more different situations.
There are many ways to do it.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
That's why I use 2 cups, no chop.
I can do all the 3 cup stuff I want to do in 1/2 the time (Or so, I don't have the scientific data) I thought cups and balls were the greatest thing ever -still do- but saw some routines that made me want to eat my own eyes to cure the unendurable tedious boredom (that was probably redundant, but true none-the-less). Seriously, just because there may be a thousand cool moves doesn't mean anyone wants to see them in one sitting, after a while a guy just starts to think: "Great you can really do an unnecessary amount of irrelevant and otherwise undesirable things with small items... can I go home now?" Usually this type of performance has a moral theme or something, I think several of my personalities were tormented into existence by this type of "entertainment". Of course, this is why I can hardly bear to watch a typical card magician. I never really learned to love the chop cup, so I can't say anything about it. It is nifty in the right hands and a super special magic cup with a special lemon or two in others.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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afinemesh Inner circle Senseless gibberish that amounts to 2621 Posts |
I've always done the cups and balls standing.
It seems more natural and comfortable to me. I can move around a lot easier J.
"I've always been mental, I'm sure of it" Boris Pocus
"Someday we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny". . .Bruce Springsteen |
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magus-inc New user 52 Posts |
Has anyone got a script for cups and balls that would incorporate masonic traditions / history
.....follow your bliss and the universe will open doors for you........
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Would we be able to mention it here if we did?
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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