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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
What have they exposed?
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MagicbyCarlo Inner circle has squandered his time making 1062 Posts |
I love the head chopper!
What was the discussion again?
Carlo DeBlasio
<BR>Entertainment specialist <BR>and all around fun guy! |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
It was about how arrogant and rude I am, apparently.
Oh, and that no one knows who I am. None of which I have any desire to change. But you know me well enough to know that already. |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-19 15:17, truthteller wrote: I'm not sharing my position with the entire world, spreading the message for the masses to see - I had a one on one conversation with a fellow performer and offered him opinions on how to improve. Critics love to tell everyone what they find wrong on unappealing. Critics print their views in newspapers, and talk about it on television, or spread it across the Internet, and MANY of them criticize without offering solutions to problems. There is a difference between "that was bad" and "that could use improvement, here's my suggestion." Your suggestions have been to lose the top hat, cane and vest - so we're left with a topless magician with no hat. Now what? I don't think there's anything wrong with being a stereotypical magician if it works for the performer. And what are the negative stereotypes? The hat and the cane? I would argue that they can be viewed differently by different people; some may seem them as negative, others may not. I don't think that focusing on the good parts of an act means one must copy them, but rather learn from them and see what works. In a lot of ways, we're all replicating certain things. If you've ever done a double lift, a false transfer or a Mora vanish, you've replicated something (unless you were the originator of those moves.) I don't advocate copying an entire act, but rather seeing what another performer is doing and seeing WHY it works. I will admit that I researched Teller's philosophy but wasn't able to find a comprehensive piece on it; if you know of something published somewhere, I'd certainly be interested to read through it. The aspects I was pointing to were the ones you had pointed out, which is what I was saying I disagreed with - that focusing on negativity isn't the way I would choose to structure an act. Again, I believe there is much to be learned from viewing ourselves and others and seeing what we don't like, but I believe there is more to be learned from a positive way of thinking. I've always tended to be an optimist in life, so I have no doubt that part of my approach to performing comes from that. I can fully understand that others use different tactics; a positive approach is what's more constructive for me. Moving in a different direction is certainly artistic, but putting your own spin on familiar classics can be just as artistic in my opinion. I think if we're being different just for the sake of being different, we're not accomplishing much. I believe if a performer wants to challenge themselves and push the boundaries, that's absolutely commendable. I also think guys like Whit are brilliant because they're doing stuff that's ancient, yet presenting it in a way that's quite artistic. I believe someone could do the same thing with that playing card vest and top hat. For me, generalizations like "most magicians are bad" can be dangerous. In my MBA program, I'm the only one in the class that consistently shows up, and shows up on time. Every other person has a poor attendance record, yet professors send out emails to all of us, telling us that our attendance is bad and the issue must be addressed. They are making a generalization that "everyone" has a poor record, and all that does is offends me, because I show up and I know that I do. If I didn't, I would hope someone would pull me aside and have a conversation with me about why I need to show up and how I can approve my attendance record (constructive criticism) versus sending a blanket email that covers everyone. I think it's very easy to make broad statements like that, and I think it's taking the lazy way out. It seems cowardly to me, for lack of a better word. I have to wonder if your approach would be different if you had one on one time with every magician you'd ever seen perform. Would you have the same tone if you had to look someone in the eye and tell them to lose the rings, the vest and the top hat because it's too cliche? Of course everyone thinks they're the exception to what's being said - all they read are the generic statements that write off most performers as being bad. No one has taken the time to sit down with them personally and go over their act.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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davidrowyn New user 34 Posts |
My first comment on this thread was, "Sometimes the best addition is a subtraction."
I think this can be an optimistic approach. For example, a musician may focus on improving a song by listening for the parts of the song that just don't sound right (and they may do well to pay attention to the producer or engineer, i.e., non-musicians, in that process. A tennis player may improve faster by listening to the observation that her serve is the weakest part of her game. And, a surgeon almost always seeks to get rid of the bad part before it gets past a certain point. All three can still be optimists. A pessimist would say they shouldn't bother, what's the point, and resign themselves to things just being different for them. I try to write as an optimist. // |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-19 22:00, Andrewzuber wrote: But you still feel as if you are qualified to criticize, that your opinion has merit, even though you yourself are not the expert on stage. So is your issue really less to do with the qualification of the critic, or the fact that criticism occurs in public? Would you think the world would be better off it public criticism were no longer allowed? Quote:
and MANY of them criticize without offering solutions to problems. There is a difference between "that was bad" and "that could use improvement, here's my suggestion." Your suggestions have been to lose the top hat, cane and vest - so we're left with a topless magician with no hat. Now what? Is it the critics job to do the subjects work for them? Is that even practical? How am I to know what your intention was, or what your resources are? And as a critic, should I? All the critic can do is evaluate the work under question. What does it seem to want to do, does it do it, and if so how well or why not? I know what I didn't like about Avatar, but does it matter how I would have done it? What value does that bring to either the movie or the people who desire to read reviews? Afterall, they aren't going to go see my Avatar. The critic reviews the thing, not what the thing could be. And what if my ideas ARE better? What if someone uses them? Is that right for someone to take from someone else without permission? Quote:
I don't think there's anything wrong with being a stereotypical magician if it works for the performer. And what are the negative stereotypes? The hat and the cane? I would argue that they can be viewed differently by different people; some may seem them as negative, others may not. Ok, when has a playing card vest not been a negative? Imagine any other field in the world, would we take a chef seriously who wore shirts with pictures of steaks on them? Would we trust a plumber who showed up in overalls with cartoon wrenches on them? Would a comic who was NOT trying to make fun of comics step on the stage of a comedy club wearing a tie that had laughing faces on it? Quote:
Using a tool is not the same things as being influenced by anothers idea. A carpenter can use a hammer to make a thousand different things. But when a carpenter sees someone else make a desk which doubles as a wine storage unit, and then starts making other desks that double as wine storage units - then that is an unartisitc choice. Having said that, as a magician, if you see I solve a problem using one tool - and you decide to use that same tool to solve the same problem, that too is an unartistic choice. Double lifts and false transfers are our nails and wrenches. Using them to create new ideas is artistic. Using them in new ways is artistic. Using them because you saw someone else do it and LOVED it is not the path to art. Quote:
Again, I believe there is much to be learned from viewing ourselves and others and seeing what we don't like, but I believe there is more to be learned from a positive way of thinking. I've always tended to be an optimist in life, so I have no doubt that part of my approach to performing comes from that. I can fully understand that others use different tactics; a positive approach is what's more constructive for me. But the very act of "putting your own spin" is doing something different. And no one has said the classics are off limits. But if I see you do the rings (as an example) and I like the way you use it to interact with the audience member, and I then build my routine to allow for a similar interaction - that is an unartistic choice as it moves my work close to yours and away from being original. However, if I see you do the rings, and I hate the way it bogs down because too much time is spent on figures and designs, and I choose to make my routine faster and leave out those elements (or figure out a way to make solve the problems I saw when I watched your figure work), then my work is moving in a different direction, and one (potentially) more impactful than the original which "inspired me." Quote:
I think if we're being different just for the sake of being different, we're not accomplishing much. I believe if a performer wants to challenge themselves and push the boundaries, that's absolutely commendable. I also think guys like Whit are brilliant because they're doing stuff that's ancient, yet presenting it in a way that's quite artistic. I believe someone could do the same thing with that playing card vest and top hat. But that's just it. Whit, whom I respect greatly and recently hired for an event, is very aware of the weaknesses and flaws in a routine and works tirelessly to fix them. He is constantly avoiding replicating what he likes in anothers work, because he wants everything to fit him. He has a clearly drawn character, and is continually growing in a direction that accentuates his uniqueness rather than his sameness. Quote:
Yes. I would. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-20 17:32, truthteller wrote: |
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saysold1 Eternal Order Recovering Cafe addict with only 10795 Posts |
Truth Teller cracks me up as he seems to love to juice things up.
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of aerospace level quality, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
I think he does. He loved his reply so much he posted it twice.
I've said my bit and I'm fine with my position. Let's just agree to disagree or this could go on until I'm 60. I've got other stuff to do. Peace out.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Or I tried to edit it ( you will notice differences in the two posts) and somehow managed to repost it as a quote.
Thank you though for making the conversation personal and not about the ideas. Otherwise we may accidentally grow in the way we think about things. |
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Xpilot Elite user Florida 464 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-14 16:06, truthteller wrote: That's exactly what I'm suggesting. But you're free to interpret that suggestion in serious ways or in a way that lets you question how serious it is. You can look at the fact that painters have changed the materials and composition they use to make paints, brushes and other materials and compare that to the fact that some magicians still use outdated looking changes bags made of outdated materials. Then you can dismiss any suggestion that appears to disagree with you. Or you can look at the fact that a tool is a tool and it can be used well or it can be used poorly. It can be well designed and well made or it can be an outdated piece of crap. Quote:
And we have a change bag with people trying to figure out what other object can be switched by them. And we have people trying to limit comments to a meaning they can serious disagree with. And we have other people making "change bags" with new materials and new designs such as 'tote bags' in the 70's & 80's. Or Creative Magic's Change Cap. I guess when David says he doesn't like 'Change Bags' we must assume he's only talking about outdated looking 'change bags' while applying my comparison only to paints, brushes and canvas used by painters today and not anything else that might make a more valid comparison. Quote:
if magicians treated their tools like great painters treated theirs, David would have never written his essay. Are you now seriously trying to suggest that a painters tools are the same thing as our tricks or even props? Just a sentence or two ago you questioned how I could seriously make a comparison between those two things. Quote:
Are you seriously trying to compare the word "words" (which I wrote) with the word "jokes" (which you wrote). Or just trying to use a childish debating tactic to build a straw man you can credit to me before knocking it down? Just for the record, I use a change bag with Karl Hein's Rope Rabbit Routine. It doesn't have a tassle, but it is an outdated change bag. And unless I die first I'm pretty sure I'll be using it long after 2011 is gone. So based on that one fact alone I'll assume that I'm a hack. [quote]I think, for lay people (adults) the traditional change bag is a dead prop[quote]Sorry, I missed the part of this thread where it was decided that only magic for adults would apply to the discussion. While our disagreement on this is probably not as great as you would like to make it appear, your college debating tactics only serve to prop up your arguments. |
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MagicbyCarlo Inner circle has squandered his time making 1062 Posts |
I love being a hack.
It's so much easier when the great minds of magic write my material, work out amazing effects and sell them to me. I have come to embrace my hackyness. I do however pick material that fits my style, my audience enjoys and I do craft scripts; so at least Dr. Larry would be proud of me. TT you obviously hit a nerve with some who feel the need to "defend their life". The discussion becomes personal when feelings are hurt or we run out of logic to defend our positions. I actually find it entertaining to see the steam run out of an argument and then see the professional, academic, experience and celebrity pedigree challenges emerge. Me, I'm comfy in my place, roll in life, and magic. It makes me happy, my clients have been happy and for me THAT is what it is all about. To quote or at least paraphrase the venerable Mr. Burger - There are many rooms in the house of magic. Now where did I put those Pom-pom prayer sticks? ;)
Carlo DeBlasio
<BR>Entertainment specialist <BR>and all around fun guy! |
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Xpilot Elite user Florida 464 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-22 11:58, MagicbyCarlo wrote: May I suggest that you look next to the Zombie you probably have wrapped in several silks (to protect the valuable aluminum-like finish). Most likely you'll find them both under that stack of DVDs (still in wide-spread use despite the inability to tell them apart from a CD or a Blu-Ray disk unless you look at the label or insert it into a drive or player). That's where I always keep my Pom-Pom sticks. (Note- I'm sitting here typing this in my also outdated underwear which I should probably remove before my next performance to ensure that people have something new to disagree with.) |
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Adam1975 Special user UK 900 Posts |
Hopefully,you put the pom pom prayer sticks.............in the dustbin!
Ive upped my standards.Now,up yours!
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
X pilot,
your logic is akin to suggesting that words are to jokes what a thread is to a ball gown. Because everyone uses words to tell jokes, it doesn't matter that the jokes are all the same. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to pay money, or waste time, listening to jokes and bits I have heard before. Sure, great comedians do use subjects and verbs - they even breath and take poo's. But that doesn't mean that people don't know a hack bit when they hear it, and that there aren't great comics who are exploring new ground in new ways. If you want to shoot for the middle, go for it. But I think most people who value art hope to do something more. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Quote: Yup, no one ever went to Monty Python and the Holy Grail more than once and no one ever played a comedy album more than once 'cuz "hey, you've heard that joke."
On 2010-11-22 18:23, truthteller wrote: Frankly, the comment from TT does not ring true from my experience and as such it reveals a lack of understanding of commercial comedy. |
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Markymark Inner circle 1686 Posts |
The Monty Python team were one of a kind but I still don't want to hear anyone else do their sketch's.
''In memory of a once fluid man,crammed and distorted by the classical mess'' -Bruce Lee
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Exactly. I will look at the same piece of art again and again because each time I see something new.
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
"Who's on Third?"
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Quote: Ah, I misunderstood you when you said you wouldn't. So when you say you wouldn't you mean you would?
On 2010-11-22 20:44, truthteller wrote: |
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