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volto Special user 603 Posts |
There's a lot of excellent material written about the principles of magic, which I guess folks here tend to call "magic theory". The Fitzkee trilogy, "Our Magic", "Strong Magic", "Seven basic secrets of illusion design" and others all attempt to set down ideas about how and to some extent, why, magic works.
I find reading this material frustrating in a number of ways - it can get bogged down in categorizing principles, or lists of effects, or semantics - it can be overly empirical, offering examples without drawing conclusions - or it can have the opposite problem, of abstract analysis with few examples. Occasionally you come across a nugget of solid gold in other media - like Levent's tips on which billiard ball moves are more deceptive, and why, in his billiard ball DVDs, or snippets in interviews with the giants of the past in old magic journals. It feels like these gems have common themes, but I haven't yet found a well-expressed concise explanation, in any medium, of how and why magic works. I was wondering if anyone here has, and if they have, whether they would be willing to point us toward it. From past experience, please count the following responses as pre-posted: - A dismissive response from Jonathan - "Read more" - "Attempt to understand what you have read" - "Perform for thirty years and you'll get it" - "Buy my DVD" |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
"I haven't yet found a well-expressed concise explanation, in any medium, of how and why magic works."
Consider that if there were such an explanation it would be science and not magic. We pretend to do magic for entertainment based on guesses of what a spectator perceives as authentic magic, making it relative to their experience and training. It is generally felt that expereinced performers are better quessers than most, but that makes their personal explanations relative also. So, performance "magic works" because spectators believe that authentic "magic works" to some degree -- even in hopeful fantasy. This is why Presentation and audience engagement are more important than "tricks." Any magic book ever written (any book actually) is just someone's opinion. The best we can do to improve our Presentation skills is to focus on books by experienced performers of the specific type of effects we aspire to -- and also read books on speech communication, psychology and sociology to help us understand the particular audience we have in mind. Most of all, if you plan to invoke magic in the minds or real people you have to deal with real people -- which cannot be done on the Internet, YouTube or Cell-Phone. Find out what people consider to be magic in the real world and learn to pretend to do that -- but that is just my opinion.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dick Christian Inner circle Northern Virginia (Metro DC) 2619 Posts |
You're unlikely to find more than largely superficial answers in the literature of magic. A far better source is the literature of cognitive psychology, perception and recent research in neuroscience.
Dick Christian
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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volto Special user 603 Posts |
Fantastic, thanks for the tips...!
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panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts |
The question is a good one and although asked by others before, it is a topic that should be restated from time to time.
I sometimes wonder if there can ever be an all-encompassing theory of magic, including an explanation as to why magic works. Wired ran a great article called, “Magic and the Brain: Teller Reveals the Neuroscience of Illusion” It is here: http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries......3UCtwzRL It may well be a question without an answer, inscrutable to the end. Some things are impossible to define, in words or an algorithm. This doesn’t make them any less “true” in our lives. Most things that are interesting are impossible to define. Love, courage, decency, dignity, hope, fear – impossible to define. It doesn’t preclude them from shaping our world. As does the experience of Magic.
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
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Uli Weigel Inner circle Berlin, Germany 1478 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-10-26 08:17, funsway wrote: Magic IS science to a large degree. Magic works because of how our senses and our brains work |
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Jacques Loyal user North 206 Posts |
If we want to study and understand the working of illusionism, prestidigitation, legerdemain, sleight of hand, escamotage, etc... and the science behind it, maybe we should start by realizing that it's not "magic". So when you ask why magic works, my answer would be: Magic does not work. Illusionism works.
Then, I would add to the source of needed information, beside the litterature on misdirection, showmanship and cognitive science, a good knowledge of optics, physics and art. We often forget that illusionism is a visual art. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Getting a theoretical backbone built in our craft requires setting up experiments to find out what works - and what one can change to most greatly effect what works. From that we can start challenging the "should" and "ought" by designing more refined experiments to sift out the "what to" from the "this might" and build some solid theory. I posted an example of how to test one's false transfer in another post at the Café. Homework for the serious and a distraction for those who wish to build theory out of magical thinking.
Kindly do not confuse deception - the active establishment and utilization of false premises in another persons inner/working reality with any form of static art like sculpture or painting- as one might 'seem as if' while the other induces behavior based not upon "as if" but "as is" (not . For the benefit of those who wish to feel dismissed - I ask what sort of person would claim to be an actor playing the part of a wizard/sorcerer when they have neither a background in acting nor knowledge of sorcery? Quote:
On 2010-10-26 14:11, Uli Weigel wrote: How about: Magic is the part of the story that happens "just because" ?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-10-26 17:13, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Mr. T., Where is your test for the false transfer? with thanks,
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The search function seems offline for now so here's a short version:
Hypothesis: if you offer someone (let's start with a child) a choice between getting to have and keep more and less of an item of value - all other things being equal they will choose "more". Setup: five silver coins and two small bags or containers like hats or felt bags. In the container to your left arrange to load in a few chocolate coins. Method: permission from the parent/guardian to participate in an experiment and ask if they are okay with chocolate. Procedure: openly display the coins on the table between the containers. Use false transfers to put coins into your left hand which pretends to place coins into the container on the left. Use actual transfers (pick up with left hand, put into right) to put coins into your right hand and when you place the coin inside, also leave the one you had palmed. The last coin, the odd numbered one seems to go into the container to your left. Now if all goes well your subject will expect there are one more coins in the left container than the right container. Using nesting gaffs etc can permit one to eliminate the right hand container and just ask them to name how many coins there are in the bag. Then make them an offer of two less items - but chocolate coins - in your hand openly and see if they change their minds. :)
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-10-26 18:40, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Wow - talk about operating under heat!
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Step 1:
Define your terms. Step 2: Remember, this is the MAGIC Café, not the ILLUSIONISM Café.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
Well, Magic is an art, not a science
Magic is to Cognitive Psychology as Painting is to Chemistry. Our tools are based in cognitive psychology, mostly learned from observation, experimentation and experience. What we do with them is create a special experience, the same way a painter does. As to why all our techniques work, this is an area of science that has just come of age in the 21st century with technologies that let us, in primitive ways, observe functioning brains in operation. Cognitive neuroscience is likely to eventually (in the next 50 to 100 years) explain and catalog a lot of what we do. But I don't think it will change it much more then the birth of chemistry out of alchemy changed the art of painting
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
"...I ask what sort of person would claim to be an actor playing the part of a wizard/sorcerer when they have neither a background in acting nor knowledge of sorcery?" --JT
Acting: necessary/ Knowledge of sorcery: dangerous, to say the least
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-10-26 20:48, Alan Wheeler wrote: How many Shakesperean actresses playing witches in Maacbeth have a knowledge of Wicca? How many actors playing Aliens have a working knowledge of them? This is drama, not biography. There are many ways to come to a part and most actors use a mix. It can come from internal knowledge, it can come from external mimicry (from which we get the term "role model"), it can come from craft (purely playing on the audience's expectations), and it can come from pure imagination.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
First, without the acting work - feedback about what the audiences is perceiving from what you are doing - you are not going to have such an easy time getting what you want across - or be limited at it. Second, if you don't know what your audience believes sorcery/Wicca/magic(k) is about - it's going to be hard to sell them on the idea that you are using that kind of thing to make your magic happen in performance.
Whether or not you believe in/study/practice magic(k) is your own affair.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
I think we are hiking backwards if we are still thinking about using other folks' religious beliefs as the imputed cause of our little dilemmas. It is bad form imho, and strong indication of weak imagination. There may be exceptions to this rule, but the creative party will need to be accountable for mocking regular folks. If you don't think there are regular folks who take those beliefs seriously, you are living a sheltered life.
Michael Kamen
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Agreed Michael - just setting context for starting on the path Robert-Houdin pointed out. Like those dance step patterns you put on the floor when learning. Right foot affect. Left foot action. Each step directed towards making something special happen. I'm arguing that they have to be able to follow your actions in context and have some ways/hooks to relate to your character when performing.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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